Mayim Rabim

That was an incredibly powerful post. Thanks for your honesty.

The Jewish world places such an enormous emphasis on child-bearing. Living in it as a single woman or as someone who can't have kids for other reasons can be unbearable... but you have to remember that the Jewish world also--rightly--places an emphasis on RAISING children.

I really doubt that Hakodesh Baruch Hu wants you to deplete yourself so much that you can't be a decent mother to the children you have, or a wife to your husband. And, I am told that we Jewish women are supposed to strive for a relationship with Gd ourselves.

How can halachah want you to put yourself in a position where you can't do any of that? I don't think it does.

I have to say, that was what I picked up on as well. You say:

...one of the main reasons I married my husband was so that I could have children.

...now that goal is gone.

What about raising the children you already have? Wasn't that the point of having them?

I hope that doesn't sound harsh; feelings are what they are, and there's no such thing as judging them.

I just mean, I'm surprised by how you're looking at this. To me, having babies and raising them are points on the same continuum - all towards the goal of creating a beautiful family, and being a mother to them. I'm surprised that you feel useless if you can't keep doing the first part; don't you feel the second stage is just as important a role in life? Isn't that where the real task of being a mother is?

Vasser, big hugs to you. I can imagine this must be incredibly difficult for you. You have every right to be scared. But you said it yourself: what's left - "the real work - of developing a loving and emotionally healthy husband-wife relationship, a substantial parent-child relationship."

Focus on that and give yourself time to adjust to this new aspect of YOU.

You not only owe this to yourself, you owe it to your kids. The husband/wife relationship is the foundation of healthy children, and the belief that sex is something that can exist outside of procreation is crucial for a healthy marriage. I am also at a point now where I am using birth control for causes that are beyond me, and that is never a good feeling, but I have a husband who constantly reassures me that he would be happy with any number of children that we have, and that alleviates a lot of the pressure. How does your husband feel about these things?

I'd also like to echo everyone else's comments. Raising the children you already have has to be priority #1 now. What kind of mom would you be if you had decided to just keep having more kids than you could handle.

I also have 2 small kids, and have learned the beauty of larger age differences. I have friends with more young kids, but they certainly don't make it look easy. That's not for me. and it's not like you're saying you'll never have more kids, just not yet (correct?).

Plus you don't really know that there's no way you can get pregnant now. No birth control is 100% effective. If it's really meant to be, it'll happen anyway. (I'm not trying to scare you into thinking you'll get pregnant anyway, because that's very unlikely. I'm just trying to point out that if G-D really thinks you're being futile, (S)He can do something about it :-)

PS. I'm really jealous that your baby is sleeping through the night. We're still quite far from that.

I will be in the same situation as you and I could relate to what you said. For me I don't need to ask a Rav- I was told in my 5th preg in 7 years that another one would kill me- the old "rodef" clause which makes that I would be forced halachically (sp)into (gasp) a dnc- we all know what that means!!! Where I have a hard time (in addition to other reasons)with this- I'm also a BT (10 years!) Is that when I was becoming frum I was told that WE don't hold like the secular world and WE don't do family planning- yet (although I would never even give up any of my kids ever) if I had done that I wouldn't be in the possition I am in now- financially, and physically. What gives?????

The answer is that "WE don't hold like the secular world and WE don't do family planning" is too simplistic and black and white an answer, and that few things in Jewish law are absolute and concrete. I do some studying with baalei teshuva, and I am careful to not phrase things in that way, even if it means that they question more and that their evolution toward shimur mitzvot is much slower. I think one difference between BT and FFB (and I hope I am not overstepping any boundaries) is that FFBs are much more likely to look for "ways out" (which is a perfectly acceptable way of approaching halacha when in consultation with your posek). While I have never seen a situation firsthand where BTs have taken this to a dangerous extreme, your story does in some cases highlight what has always been my suspicion. I know there are many BTs on this site, and I am curious to know what you feel on this matter.

I was always under the impression that what both BT's and FFB's are supposed to be doing is following Da'as Torah i.e. doing what Hashem wants of us - neither looking for nor objecting to "ways in" or "ways out." Of course, to what extent any given individual actually does this may vary, and it might be true that BT's less frequently have a bias towards seeking "ways out." After all, it was a conscious choice that they made to opt into observant, Torah Judaism in the first place. But many FFB's (especially, but not only, those in the less "modern" world) are equally committed to following Da'as Torah in whatever direction this may lead them.

While I'm not an extreme person myself, I have *definitely* met other BT's who are.

On the other hand, a particular BT friend of mine was told, when asking a Rav (her FFB FIL, unfortunately) about a heter for bc because their marriage was very rocky, compounded by too many kids in too short a time, that "it wasn't acceptable to ask". I was horrified!

On second thought, not sure if the unacceptable was in answer to the real shailah, or that the concept of his son's marriage being in trouble was unacceptable. Noge'ah b'davar rears its ugly head. . . I told her to ask elsewhere next time.

B"H, things have since improved for her.

cya, I have only seen daas torah followed to that extreme in chasidish and real yeshivish circles, and even then not across the board. Daas torah is a nice thing in concept, but I don't even believe that it is an integral part of Torah observance. Perhaps it is the community that I was raised in, though I am not sure about this since I know so few people who put all of their major life decisions in the hands of a rabbi. If you subscribe to this way of observance then the distinctions I made above have no relevance, since I was talking about the rabbi as a halachic advisor who guides you to make the right decisions based on what halacha says and not as one who dictates life choices.

Dear Avigayil, while I know this is a little off-topic but your comment about "Daas torah is a nice thing in concept, but I don't even believe that it is an integral part of Torah observance" raised my eyebrows quite high. I was always taught that it is the most important part no matter what,a nd even though now we live what can be termed a "yeshivish" lifestyle..growing up I was more modern (went mixed swimming, etc.) and went to that type of educational institution and it was still what i was taught..the only difference I see now is whether it is practiced or not, but I am not sure there is any orthodox rabbi (modern or not) who would say that it's not integral to Judaism.

Da'as Torah, as I understand it, is not about putting all "major life decisions in the hands of a rabbi," as Avigayil wrote. It has little to do with how often you consult a Rabbi, much more to do with your attitude towards life and towards how and why you ask when you do. Are we looking to do the right thing based on what the Torah/Hashem is telling us, or based on some other independent motivator. If our motivation is the former, it makes little difference how many times we actually feel the need to consult a Rabbi as opposed to deciding on our own (assuming we know enough halacha to be confident in our decisions). Similarly, if our prime motivator is one not integral to Torah, we may be able to "find a [halachic] way out" as Avigayil suggested in her original comment, and thus there may technically be nothing halachically wrong with whatever decision we have made. This still, in my opinion, does not necessarily constitute following Da'as Torah.

I'm getting a bit uncomfortable with the comments on this post, which are starting to sound a bit judgmental of others' choices. I know it is difficult, but I want to encourage everyone to be sparing in statements about what "we all are supposed to be doing", or "no Orthodox rabbi would say." Of course it's quite possible that you will come across religious approaches here which cannot be reconciled with your own, but it's equally possible these are simply approaches to which you haven't been exposed. Let's all try to learn from each other before we put each other into boxes.

I was raised in a strictly committed and highly learned Orthodox family; although we were not "yeshivish," we were not "modern" either. I never even heard the term "daas torah" until I got to high school, and that was from a teacher who was much more right-wing than the school itself.

As it was explained to me, daas torah refers to the belief that gedolim, by virtue of their learning as well as their personal merit, have greater insight into what Hashem wants from us even in areas not strictly governed by or even discussed in halachic texts. Therefore it is appropriate to consult a great rabbi not just on issues of issur ve-heter but for counseling on all sorts of life choices. My experience is that this belief is NOT accepted across the board in the Orthodox community. Just for example, many Orthodox rabbis do provide counseling, but would readily agree that they are not competent to provide guidance in all areas, and would recommend that an individual see a psychologist instead.

Personally I don't think it is at all necessary to characterize asking for a heter to use birth control as either "looking for a way out" or having a "prime motivator not integral to Torah." Like Avigayil, I would guess that baalei teshuva might be more likely to see halacha in black and white, whether by nature of whatever is motivating them to seek out religion, or simply because it is easiest for teachers to present things in those terms at the beginning. People who grow up in the observant community might be more familiar with the many cases in which rabbis give or sometimes even recommend heterim. But I also think there are two possible ways to view compromise: as a sign of weakness, or strength.

It might be that ideally no one should ask for a heter, that one should simply strive to do what the halacha appears to say, no matter what the personal cost. But it might also be that the Torah actually supports competing values: having more children, yes, but also protecting the health and development of the ones you already have, or preserving shalom bayit with your spouse. I do see this as an area of choice: in other words, unless your health is at risk, I don't think Hashem requires you to ask for a heter for these reasons. But if you do, I certainly think Hashem would support that. These are all valuable motivations from a halachic standpoint.

This is getting long. In short, then, a plea for not judging each others' motivations, or desire to live a life according to what Hashem wants from us.

Thanks, Persephone. I didn't respond because I didn't know what to say without sounding defensive or judgemental. For the record, I put finding a "way out" in quotes for a reason.

Sorry if I offended anyone - didn't mean to be sounding judgemental. In any case, I think I may not have expressed myself clearly. What I meant to be saying (again, only my personal view - not judging anyone else) is that the answer a posek will give on these "life direction" types of questions should definitely take into account individual circumstances, preferences, tendencies, etc. Giving someone guidance on such topics is not a function of how well someone has memorized the shulchan aruch - there is so much more to correctly paskening or giving guidance on such issues. Therefore, of course anyone asking for such guidance needs to convey these individual factors to the Rabbi s/he is asking. I just didn't necessarily see this as a form of "opting in" or "opting out." Rather as a form as providing all the relevant details in order to get the proper guidance. Hope this is clearer :-)

Don't they say that even if fertility is not part of relations, that neshomas of geirim etc are formed? That is what I have heard.

Been there, had those feelings too. I can only echoe other responses here......and give my own:

It's not like you didn't want to have any kids. You DID have kids!

And yes, sex does exist outside of the procreation framework. Wait until menopause, haha.

Lastly, yes, nurture the kids you have. Nurture your husband. Nurture yourself!

If you have more, consider yourself lucky. If you don't, consider yourself lucky that you had what you had.

And let it go.

I totally hear what you're talking about.

I remember when I was also on the verge of a nervous breakdown, with three children under the age of four, wondering why I was the only woman I knew who couldn't handle things. Calling the rav for a heter was incredibly humiliating. But I know just what you mean about your disaappointment about not being fertile any more. My rebbetzin said that when you use birth control, you feel like "half a woman." That was exactly how I felt.

And you're right, it is sad that so much of our self esteem comes from being able to be pregnant, and having more andmore children. You will be interested that the rav I go to says that women automatically (although, you need to get a heter, of course) receive two years heter for birth control after childbirth so that they can raise the baby, and invest in her/him. This was the teaching of Rabbi Henkin.

On the flip side, I have a friend who married in her late thirties, and was thrilled to get pregnant without too much fuss.....however, she refused to nurse the baby, saying since she got married so late, she wanted to have as many kids as possible before it was Too Late.

I sort of understood..and sort of thought she was Crazy!