Pressure
In my earlier post, ipseq said that she'd like to discuss the unspoken pressure to have sex as the only (halachicly permissible) means of sexual release for the husband, even when the wife is not interested. I think it's an interesting discussion, so I'm opening up this post for it, but I feel the need to state that it's not the sort of pressure that I was talking about in my last essay. The undefined tension in the air isn't imposed by this feeling that I must be an outlet for my husband's sexual frustration. On the contrary, a large part of the tension is that I desire the physical and emotional closeness. Rather, that I want to have had that closeness, and to have had it recently or in the near future, but not now dammit I'm tired/cranky/busy. But, oops, I'm going to be niddah tomorrow/in three days/next week so we'd better get it in while we can.
Or on mikvah night...it's not that my husband is so horny that he can't keep his hands off of me, or that I feel that way about him, it's that we're "supposed to" have sex and enjoy it. Not only that, but it's "supposed to be" my special time, the time promised to me (implicitly) in my ketubah. And if I don't cash in my chips that night, then he can use the "I'm too tired" excuse for the whole rest of the week if he wants...by which point I may be too tired, or the specialness of being together again will have worn away.
So, anyway, pressure. Specifically pressure-induced-by-male-sexual-frustration. Talk about it, because ipseq wants to. Because I want to.
Comments
Oops. My primary reason for wanting to participate in this blog was to share my love of t'h. I realize I've been sidetracked by some other issues and have to get back to my primary purpose. Thanks for the much-needed kick in the pants, Jen.
Someone else will have to provide sources, but the prohibitions regarding masturbation partly have their foundation in 'wasting seed', onanism. It comes from Onan not fulfilling his husbandly duty when he married his brother's widow, Tamar, an act for which G-d kills Onan. It also stems from the Torah itself: men are considered impure when they ejaculate (although this belief seems to have fallen to the wayside). Maimonides believed masturbation saps a man's sexual energy, which ultimately threatens his well‑being.
This is an extremely brief overview of this subject. If it's not too awkward, perhaps you can ask the rabbi with whom you are studying conversion for a more thorough discussion on this.
Thank you, fromBeneath. That helps some. I had heard somewhere that that story you pointed to in the Tanakh is really dealing with something else, and that our interpretation that masturbation is bad is really not what was meant. But I'm going to have to go on a long search for it. (That's why I was thinking hubby was okay with his little... afternoon delights. hehe)
Hi Jen,
he story of Onan appears in Gen. 38. In context, Onan's sin is his failure to fulfil the mitsva of yibum (providing his deceased brother with an heir) by performing coitus interruptus when he has sex with his brother's wife. It is not clear to me that there would have been anything wrong with this act if Onan had not had a positive obligation to have children. However, halachic sources, beginning with the Gemara, interpret the text as a prohibition against "wasting seed" in any context, and that is what matters for practical purposes. Some authorities interpret "waste" more broadly than others, so you should certainly look into the issue, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
On the bright side, I don't know of any halachic sources that prohibit female masturbation. (Ladies?)
Back to the issue of pressure, I think that t'h can put pressure on the couple to have relations when they might not want to. I know a few months ago, during my second week of permissible time (what's the term for that? Or is it just 'tahor'?), I had a bad cold and was SO not in the mood. But I also knew I was going to get my period soon, and felt like we HAVE to have sex, because it's our last chance.
We ended up not, I got my period a day or two later, and I was quite bummed. However, I think I would have been just as bummed if we HAD had sex, because I wouldn't have enjoyed it (c'mon, I could barely breathe!).
I don't think the pressure is necessarily a bad thing, it's just there. Talking about it, commiserating together with my husband, usually lets us laugh about it. When it comes to mikvah night, I have to say I haven't yet experienced not wanting to have sex, but then, I don't have kids yet. I imagine that would be a difficult situation, one of you not being in the mood on mikvah night? I can imagine the pressure of feeling like you have to have sex anyway could be overwhelming. Maybe that means we have to have conversations before mikvah night about the "what ifs" - the nights when maybe one of us just doesn't want to?
fB, this part of your comment is exactly what I was talking about with regard to the "pressure" in the air:
We ended up not, I got my period a day or two later, and I was quite bummed. However, I think I would have been just as bummed if we HAD had sex, because I wouldn't have enjoyed it (c'mon, I could barely breathe!).
When it comes to mikvah night, I have to say I haven't yet experienced not wanting to have sex, but then, I don't have kids yet.
Well, I have bunches of them, and I haven't experienced this either... other nights, sure, but mikvah night? No way. I went through all the preparation, the dipping (for me, not quite so routine) and I'm darn well getting rewarded for it! And ~2 weeks off is more than enough to insure my husband is on the same wavelength. I guess that means we have a healthy relationship? AND a lock on our bedroom door. (Absolutely essential!!!) Not that I never let my kids sleep with me, but only when I made a concious decision to allow it on a specific occasion... and not on mikvah night!
On the other hand, I do feel the pressure during the countdown to niddah time, but then, there's always next month... it's not as bad as the end of pregnancy countdown, where you're not so comfortable during sex anyway, but it's going to be such a "long" time without even adult cuddling once the baby comes. But that's after an extended time of togetherness, so it's also different.
So maybe I'm just not fully understanding what we're supposed to be discussing here?
Even I, with my post-mikvah tensions, have never not wanted to have sex on mikvah night. ;)
Well, I have.
There are physical reasons for it - I'm often simply dryer at that point in my cycle, and I know sex will probably be uncomfortable without astr0glide (which I'm not supposed to use when I'm ovulating).
But I think it might just be the strain of trying to conceive (TTC). It's very hard to be in the mood when you're under that kind of pressure. Particularly when you've put that same pressure on yourself every month and been disappointed every time.
And then the next week, I'm tired from having put myself through the pressure, and tired of sex seeming like work instead of fun. Of course then the OTHER kind of pressure starts: the "time is running out" kind. Fortunately by then, my physical rhythm is picking up again. So right now what I'm working on is taking note of it when I *am* in the mood, and making sure to act on it.
Michaela, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to keep up the TTC part of the cycle for as long as you do. I really feel for you.
Isn't two weeks after the first day of your period when you ovulate? So mikveh night is the perfect night to conceive (if the aforementioned statement is true). However, for women whose cycle is a bit shorter, could this be the reason they CAN'T conceive? The two-week thing overlaps their conception window?
Actually, Jen, it's a bit more complicated than that. You ovulate about 14 days before your next period. If you always have a textbook 28 day cycle, then you probably ovulate on day 14. But most people are a bit more variable than that. There's a whole industry around figuring out when you ovulate.
Also, for optimal chances at getting pregnant, you really should be having sex just before you ovulate, not on the day of. For people who get to mikvah by Day 12 (which is the usual minimum) and ovulate on Day 14, this all works out quite well.
But yes, there are some people who ovulate before they get to mikvah, which is a major barrier to TTC. Even ovulating the same day as mikvah is a bit late. But with the guidance of a rabbi & doctor there are several ways to try and get around the problem.
As far as the sources- Reishit Chochma, Tanya, and other Chassidic/Kabbalistic sources seem to say that whole worlds are destroyed from wasting seed. As far as expanding "sexual" energy when one partner is not interested- a wise Rebbetzin suggested working out. Get the old adrenelin flowing. What about chocolate?
To Jen: I was always taught that for men to masturbate is assur, but for woman it is mutar...women don't "waste seed" whihc is "potential life" when they masturbate.
To Eden: Why can't a person use AstroGlide on the night of the mikvah? I have done it numberous times (with astroglide or s/t of the sort), thankk G-d without a problem ?? I am confused by this statement?
FYI, there is no halachic problem with Astroglide! The problem is for infertility. Almost all forms of artificial lubrication have some negative effect on sperm. My doctor said mineral oil was the least harmful, but the best thing was to do without anything at all, if we could.
I would assume healthy fertile couples don't need to worry much about this, but since my husband and I are already having a very hard time conceiving, we don't want to do anything that makes it worse.
Jen, thanks for the clarification. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my lack of knowledge.
There have been SEVERAL mikva nights when I couldn't have sex...if i was too overwrought for example, and foreplay went on too long and I got too worn out.
I HATE THAT!
Yes, mikvah night is supposed to be special for the woman, but the man has feelings, too, with halachic concerns and ramifications. Don't forge, he hasn't gone through hormone changes over the last two weeks!
I always give my husband the call on going ahead with sex if he feels he can't hold out, no matter if i'm satsfied or not - and if you know anythign about me, you would probably be surprised since I'm not Bittual at all!!!!
Note that the art of a quickie is a good one to master. The husband is satisfied and then, "he owes you". I hardly say NO anymore, because of Payback Time!
Think of it as eating. Sometimes a snack is good enough..and sometimes you want a full course meal!
Hoo boy.
First I want to say that that I've been reading this blog for about a week now. And honestly, it depresses the hell out of me. I am not yet Jewish (will be converting soon), so I am reading everything in my power about Orthodox ways of life (Jewish blogs ROCK!). But man, these posts on this particular blog are real downers. I guess I'm glad I'm reading them. (I've been in "I'm going to convert" mode for about 4 years, so I'm pretty well read and prepared for the MOST part.)
But in this post here, I'm rather shocked that married men can only get sexual release by having sex with their wives. Geez. My hubby would go bonkers if that's all he could do. He's the type of guy who wants/needs release every day, and I am not up for it every night. I appreciate his afternoon releases just before his nap (he works from home).
Could you point me to the writings that say that this is the halacha?