don't ask don't tell
Tall Latte's experience and the attached comments reminded me of something that's been bothering me for a long time. Whose business is it, exactly, why you use the mikvah?
If you've been to more than one mikvah, you've probably run into a range of degrees of intrusiveness on the part of the mikvah staff. At some places, they're trained to do nothing more than ask if you want them to look at your hands, feet, & back of the neck; they don't want to scare anyone away. At some places they ask if you've read the preparation checklist on the wall. At some places they actually READ you every item on the checklist, and you have to answer yes, I did that. None of these surprise me, although I think the last one is excessive - it still might be helpful to hear the items out loud, maybe you'll remember one you missed.
But then it starts to get hairy. At some places they ask you when you made your hefsek tahara. Now they're not just helping you prepare on mikvah night, they're checking up on what you did for the entire past week. Again, maybe this is meant to be helpful - perhaps once out of every hundred or thousand women, they hit one who doesn't realize she did the math wrong.
But to me it's a lot more like peeking into your bedroom. What if you have some kind of unusual heter to make a hefsek on an earlier day, do you have to explain that to some stranger now? What if she doesn't believe you? Do you have to give her your rabbi's phone number so she can check up on you? What if he's not home, or you asked the shaylah anonymously because you didn't want him to know your name?
And what if you're deliberately not making your hefsek on the right day: is that any of her business?
Which brings me to the next examples. I know of one mikvah attendant who was told that if she realized a woman had been sent to the mikvah by the nearby Kabbalah center, she should call the rabbi, and he would as diplomatically as he could turn the woman away. I don't even know what his issue was: whether he suspected they were not keeping T"H correctly, or maybe they were doing some kind of non-traditional rituals at the mikvah, or maybe these women weren't Jewish altogether.
That's probably a unique geographical issue, but here's a more universal one: I had the experience of going to an unfamiliar mikvah during Rosh Hashana, and when I called to make the appointment the mikvah lady asked me if I was single. I was flabbergasted. Was she wondering, just because she didn't know me, if I was going to the mikvah because I wanted to have premarital sex? When she insisted that I come by on Erev Yom Tov (the eve of the holiday) to pay her, even though most mikvaot just ask you to mail the check later, I was sure it was because she wanted to see if I looked religious and married.
Months later it occurs to me that maybe she was just asking because of the custom for single women to immerse in preparation for the High Holidays - if I said I was single, she would have explained that I should make my appointment before the holiday rather than on it. But I don't know. This was an area with a large single Jewish population; it seems just as possible that the mikvaot there are rumored to be unwittingly helping single people to sleep together, and maybe in defense they've decided to be aggressive about questioning everyone new.
Most likely none of this is the mikvah attendant's idea. In every case I've listed, it's almost certainly a policy decision by the rabbi, who has told the mikvah attendants that they must ask such-and-such question. And I can see why a rabbi would feel the responsibility to take action based on what he sees as a communal concern - whether it's asking too many questions, for fear of encouraging single women to become tehorah so they can sleep with men they're not married to; or not asking too many questions, for fear of women deciding to give up mikvah altogether and sleep with their husbands while niddah.
But I can't help feeling this is not what a mikvah should be. What business is it of theirs who comes, or what their story is? Why can't the mikvah just be a place that makes it possible for those who want to observe the halacha, to do so, and not worry about the rest? When I go to mikvah, I expect the attendant to tell me my tevilah was kosher. That's it. What I did beforehand, what I do afterward, I don't think of her as pronouncing "kosher" on any of that. Why does she think she is? If I volunteered something I was doing wrong, maybe then I can see her feeling she couldn't knowingly help me commit a sin. But why go asking?
Frankly I think this would be a problem for me, if I was asked to work at the mikvah; I don't think I could enforce such a policy. When it comes down to it, taharat hamishpacha is a private responsibility. What goes on in your bedroom, it seems to me, is your business.
From the crowd here I tend to expect at least some agreement. Not all of you are Orthodox, and I assume you'd be upset - as Tall Latte was - if you were turned away because your practice did not conform to the rules of the mikvah. But I don't think we're representative of the thinking of traditional mikvah staff, or the rabbis who supervise them.
What do you think the rationale is: concerns about communal behavior? A belief that they are somehow responsible, if they aid & abet you in sleeping with someone against halacha? Do they think you might taint the mikvah water? What?
If you ran the mikvah, what would you do?
Comments
I am a Mikvah lady. I'll probably leave out the city, just to try to remain anonymous!
When we have someone new coming, a name we're not familiar with, we DO ask if they're new in town, etc.
It is amazing how many people hear about the concept of Mikvah and don't know what it means, or anything about it and come and don't realize there is more to it than just dipping.
We usually ask if they've learned with someone, and if they say no, we ask if they'd like to learn more.
There are people who want to keep the Mitzvah of Taharas Hamishpocha and want to do it "properly", and are extremely grateful to know that the mikvah lady is open to discussing with her.
At our mikvah we do not ask when a woman did her Hefsek, but I know I was once asked when I was in Israel. The reason was that they found many many women were doing the calculations incorrectly, due to the fact that they were taught 'mother to daughter' and their mother didn't explain it properly, or didn't know properly.
If I were making a mistake, I'd want to know.
I have never asked anyone if they're single. I would HATE to take someone to the mikvah who was not observing the Halachas properly.
I think the only person who would get offended by being asked any questions in the Mikvah is someone who has something to hide. That is just my experience. I've been doing this for 18 years.
When a woman comes to toivel, I check her back and ask her if she checked her front.
If she asks me to check her feet and hands, I do. But I don't ask to do that.
I once asked a Rav what my RESPONSIBIITY was, and he told me it was to make sure she goes under the water, and thats where it is at.
I was once at the mikvah, on Chol Hamoed Pesach and there must have been about 15 people there (we usually have 4 - 5 a night) and someone asked for Bedika cloths. I was SHOCKED to see how many women said, "What's that?" A quick lesson ensued.
I did not refuse to take anyone that night.
We do ask if a woman is married to a non Jew, and we do not take them in our Mikvah. It is not a mitzvah. Unmarried is also not a mitzvah. Our mikvah also does not do conversions at all.
Oh, my, the details that get lost! I was once at the mikvah and asked for bedikah cloths, and was discussing with the mikvah attendant how fast I go through them. You know, it depends on how many tries it takes to get a hefsek taharah, whether I get past the onah (anticipatory days) or not... with longish cycles, I usually did.
Anyway, she stopped me, and said she had never learned to do bedikahs on anticipatory days, just to abstain from relations! (She had come to T"H late in life, and apparently missed this one detail.) Luckily it wasn't something that would have made her tevilahs invalid and left her niddah, like not making a proper hefsek taharah, etc., but it was still an important detail that she should have been taught!
Susan - what difference does it make to you or the mikvah if you take a woman for whom it is not a mitzvah to immerse? It does not render the mikvah invalid. Refusing to aid her probably only cultivates a sent of resentment toward Orthodox Jews.
Desde - as far as I know, bedikot are not l'chatchila (before the fact) required for onot other than onah beinonit or a veset kavua. It is preferable to do them for hachodesh and haflagah, but not a problem b'dieved (after the fact) if they are omitted.
I think that's what I meant by it wasn't a problem that would invalidate her tevilah, but thank you for the clarification. I know customs differ on this one, having attended a T"H shuir where the (Lubavitch) woman giving it said to do one bedikah on the onah day (I don't believe she distinguished between the types) around the time your period came the month before, and some of us (generally non-Lubavitch) had learned to do one *after* the onah ended, before resuming relations.
Lubavitch also calculates some of the onahs differently, and besides that she kept trying to insist we had to also keep extra days from previous longer cycles. I don't remember all the details, because at that point another woman chimed in with, "My kallah teacher covered that, and called it an optional observance..." and those of us who weren't quite understanding the woman giving the shuir took a deep sigh of relief and tuned out. I think I left that particular lesson more confused than I was going in!
I've actually never been asked about making a proper hefsek taharah. Perhaps that speaks either to the trust our mikvah ladies have in us or they, too, operate under the don't ask don't tell philosophy.
I should clarify. In our community we have had (until recently) only one mikvah. It's been used by the R/C/O for conversions and keilim and of course, by women.
I could have gone and not said anything and no one would have been the wiser.
My bigger issue was my sense of "guilt." You know the feeling when you think everyone knows something about you -- even if they don't? It's like that. I lived as a part of the Orthodox community -- albeit on the liberal fringe -- during my first marriage. As far as the attendant knew, I could have been pregnant or nursing and could have stopped coming for one of those reasons. In fact, when I went to the mikvah just before remarrying, the attendant remarked that she hadn't seen me for several years. Had I had a new baby? Apparently my story didn't make the rounds as much as I feared.
I guess, what I was looking for was an official sanction of my changed life. I mean, I went to the mikvah before marrying the first time. I went to the mikvah knowing what it entailed and how my status as a woman was changing. Bottom line: I was allowed to have sex.
As a woman going through a divorce and becoming unmarried, the message was equally clear: you are in a prolonged state of niddah and sex is not an option. (And trust me, fighting for a get and paying attorney bills, that was one thing that was not even on my mind -- even if it had been allowed.)
I know the party line of who goes to the mikvah, who doesn't and don't ask don't tell. I'm familiar with the concept of "tallis and t'fillin dates." I also had read about innovative non-Orthodox communities in Boston and Philly etc. and their non-Orthodox mikvaot.
Perhaps it speaks more to my religious schizophrenia. I want(ed) to be one thing and know/knew that I'm another. I straddle(d) a line uncomfortably. I wanted my LOR to sanction something which he couldn't. I was looking for absolution, cleansing, healing, whatever...in a traditional setting. And, as it was pointed out to me then: that's not what the mikvah is for.
There's yet to be an easy answer. And Eden's right. There is that element of peering into our collective bedrooms. While I wish we could integrate into mikvah something to acknowledge the marking of time and our lifecycle events (connected to our reproduction and sexuality) within a halachic or traditional context, we're not there yet. We may never get there in a tow-the-line halachic world. Maybe we don't need to? I don't know. And, as some would rightly say, there are bigger fish to fry in the traditional world such as helping agunot, for example. But I digress.
Perhaps that's what non-Orthodox mikvahs are for. Of course, that gets me back to the beginning and wanting to find a way to sanctify something other than a monthly event in a halachic context.
I've yet to find an answer that satisfies.
Do I want to know? What are "tallis and t'fillin dates"?
Anyway, Latte, I wish for you a satisfying answer... I don't know that there is one, though. People make up ceremonies occasionally... depending on how it's done, it can work. As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with a "Simchas Bat" or a Women's tefilah group gathering to read Megillas Rus or Esther... and I've heard of a woman being told to gather 10 women around her to recite Birchas Gomel (yes, in an Orthodox setting).
i have been told of a certain mikveh in my geographical area that i'm not allowed to go to as a gerus. That community doesn't recognize any gerus (no matter how kosher it is). i'd love to go there as it's very beautiful, but especially for my kallah visit i don't want to because too many questions could be raised and i don't want to lie but i don't want them to know details they really don't need to. but that brings us back to, why are they asking?
i'm going to try to go after a few months using other mikvaot and we'll see if i get denied access. hopefully by then i'll be famliar enough with everything there should be no need to ask anything other than "do you want me to check your back and feet?"
B"H i'm blessed with many mikvaot choices in my community so i'm currently debating which one i'll use before my wedding.
Tallis and t'fillin dates are an encounter of a personal nature between a seemingly observant unmarried man and unmarried woman. As in: "I've got to get up early tomorrow, grab my tallis and t'fillin and get to shul before work." Perhaps it's a little like saying "kosher ham."
I've never heard of anyone questioning a person's conversion. Even in our smallish community, if one converts and then continues using the mikvah, no one asks to see a synagogue membership card (R/C/O) or any such paperwork.
Maybe I'm naieve. Aside from my kooky experience in La Paz, I've never had my status questioned. I didn't need to show the mikvah attendant a copy of my get before I dunked prior to remarrying.
Those people I know who have converted and are continuing to use the mikvah are assumed to be genuine. Honestly, I can't imagine anyone making such an exclusionary rule. And, last time I checked, aren't we enjoined from bringing up a person's conversion once it's fait accompli?
talia, I have to say I'm somewhat stunned that there would be a mikvah that would not "recognize" a conversion. Once you convert (not getting into a discussion about types of conversions here), you are Jewish. Period. End of story. I find that appalling.
I've only once been asked if I was married, and that was back when I first started going. But none of the other attendants who had never seen me before asked that. Other than that, no one's ever asked me anything other than checking my feet/hands/hair. And it's never consistent: sometimes feet, sometimes hands, sometimes both...
But then again, I've only been to this one mikvah. And I'm just spitty enough to say, if asked when I made my hefsek tahara, "when did you make yours?" ;>
That said, I know people forget things after awhile, and different teachers have different priorities, but that is not for the mikvah attendants to worry about. Maybe rabbis should be sensitive to the "refresher" need, and arrange to have t'h classes held, perhaps once a year. Maybe mikvahs could have an information sheet, with 'refresher' information and a confidential phone number to call if the person has a question about something on the sheet. I very much appreciate the concern of the attendants and ravs, but you know? As long as you're not coming over to eat at my house, what do you care if I'm glatt or just plain old ordinary kosher?
Sorry, I'm becoming queen of the long comments here...
Wow, Talia, that's painful to hear. I'm so sorry you encounter that sort of opposition. Can you disclose what sort of community it is that doesn't accept converts?
Susan, thanks for sharing your approach as a mikvah attendant. I don't want to put you on the defensive in any way, and I know we're all grateful to you and other women like you who perform this vital service for the community.
But I'm struck by two things about your comment.
One is this line: "I once asked a Rav what my RESPONSIBIITY was, and he told me it was to make sure she goes under the water, and thats where it is at." That's exactly my point. I find it interesting that, even knowing this, you see additional things as your responsibility too. You're obviously not alone in this. I don't know if it's a characteristic of the kind of person who wants to work in a mikvah - the strong desire to help people keep the halacha correctly. As such it's a very laudable motivation.
But personally, I'm more in line with the commenter who suggested printed material (whether signs or booklets) explaining the rules of taharat hamishpacha. To me, being asked questions is invasive. Maybe that's just my personality; you might find an equal or greater number of women who'd be grateful for the questioning, in case they missed something. But in any case, I think I've disproved your theory, because I have nothing to hide and I *was* offended.
The other thing that struck me was the story you told of the women who did not know what a bedika cloth was - and yet you "did not refuse to take anyone that night." I may be mistaken, but I think the failure of a married woman to make any bedikot, or even a hefsek tahara, could be a worse halachic problem than a single woman who sleeps with her boyfriend in a state of tahara.
Obviously a position like this requires thinking on your feet and using your own judgment sometimes, and I don't blame you for having pity on these women. But I'm surprised you didn't consult a rabbi before allowing these women to tovel (if you didn't). And together with the other things you say, it sort of bolsters my feeling that your approach and that of many mikvah attendants is based just as much on personal feeling as on halacha.
I want to reiterate that I'm not attacking you, and you don't need to defend yourself. It's a huge zechut (merit) to take on this responsibility of helping couples this way, and you should feel very good about what you do.
I'm just wondering aloud whether the policy of mikvaot really has to be the way it is.
- i think their concern is communal behavior (not aiding and abetting - as far as the individual is concerned, all things being equal, they'd prefer the singles used the mikva, if they're having premarital sex, than not - they just don't want to appear to be giving the behavior a stamp of approval.) My understanding is that most places don't ask - they prefer not to know - but if they recognize someone as single, feel obliged to kick them out.
I think the rest of the questions (what day was your hefsek etc) are normally asked in religious communities, where they are expecting the women to find the questions helpful. There seem to be fewer questions in less monolithic communities.