Mayim Rabim

Desde-- based on a past shaila, in this case a women has neemanus that her bedikot are ok, if she thinks that it is, or if she thinks that it isn't. If you threw out a bedikah and couldn't ask, if you suspect that it's good you can rely on that, and if you are pretty sure it was bad you would become a niddah.It is not ideal to do it this way, but if you threw a questionable bedikah out by accident it does not automatically make you a niddah.

Well, that was the problem... I had no idea. I've been blessed with having very few shaylahs over the years... mostly my bedikos contain no color at all, or are obviously red... the few yellowy-browns were either post-partum where for various reasons I never got to ask about them, or mid-week sheva neki'im and those were always fine. They were however much more yellow than brown, and I asked because my kallah teacher said to ask about everything in the yellow-brown family until I got a feel for what was okay and what wasn't. But there haven't really been enough of those to ever get that "feel." And I didn't exactly declare myself niddah, but also didn't feel comfortable having relations with my husband.

The problem was compounded by my not having a local Rav... we moved away from him quite a while ago. Also, I was both embarrassed by having tossed it and sure my period would start any day anyway... I have called our not-local Rav before, with the kinds of questions that can be answered over the phone, but couldn't bring myself to do it this time. And then somehow it was a whole week later and I was still in "limbo." And I never even thought of asking a yoetzet. Eventually, the issue resolved itself, but if I had it to do over, I would definitely have handled it differently!

Sorry I didn't make myself clearer. All I was saying is that being in limbo (aside from vestos) has no halakhic bearing, and in your case you would have had to decide one way or the other and been confident in tht decision. (A rabbi would ask you-- do you think you saw any red? and if you said no, you would not be a niddah)

I think it's a lesson in not doing voluntary bedikot, too! Although I guess it wouldn't have made a huge difference - you might have refrained from having sex anyway, if you were spotting on & off all that time.

But there are definitely cases where a woman KNOWS she's staining, not even a questionable color but red, and will be told to ignore it and just wear dark underwear... UNLESS she did a bedikah, which would make her a niddah. There's just no room to be matir red on a bedikah cloth.

Those stories always put the fear of Gd into me. :) If you have a question about your status, doing a bedikah is the worst way to try and figure it out.

Anyway - Avigayil, I've had a similar experience where I lost a questionable bedikah, and was told that unless I was sure it was red, we could assume it was fine. But I think I got the impression that it depends partly on what part of the month it is.

If you're in your tahor part of the month, you have a chazaka that you're tehorah. Even during shiva neki'im, if you've done three days of bedikot already, I think you already have a chazaka of tahara too. So if there's any question, bedieved, you can assume it was fine.

But if it's your hefsek tahara that was lost, or a bedikah from one of the first three days, then you still have a chazaka of bleeding from your period. So then I think the burden of proof might be on you to produce. I wonder if you called at that point and said you had lost a bedikah cloth, if it might be more of a problem.

Does this make sense? Hopefully someone else can confirm.

It's a nit-picky point, but I read this and wanted to add a clarification:

Even during shiva neki'im, if you've done three days of bedikot already, I think you already have a chazaka of tahara too.

The chazaka is that you are "not bleeding" (after three days of not-bleeding bedikot), which is not the same as a chazaka for being tehora. You cannot be tehora until after you have gone to the mikvah, and if you are still counting shiva neki'em then you obviously haven't done that yet.

IIRC, my questionable situation was either a hefsek taharah or early bedikah. But I was pretty sure it was good, and then had remorse once I flushed it down the toilet. Either way, I would ask a rabbi. I just wanted to mention to reinforce the point that when it comes to TM you should never assume anything.

The chazaka is that you are "not bleeding" (after three days of not-bleeding bedikot), which is not the same as a chazaka for being tehora.

Thank you! That's what I meant to say. Good clarification.

Avigayil, that's interesting. My experience was later in the week, so I came away thinking it might have been a problem if it was one of the earlier ones. But you're right, I didn't ask about that, so maybe that would have been fine too.

Although the difference was that my bedikah got lost at the rabbi's house. (Lucky me!) So maybe I had more of a safek in my mind about it. You sound like you were more sure, at least at one point.

hi. i'm non-observant jew/atheist, but am fascinated by this blog. i've learned so much, and continue to as i read more.

so, i don't mean to sound ignorant, because i've pretty much picked up all the 'lingo,' but perhaps someone could tell me what a bedikah cloth is? also, is birth control allowed, as the oral contraceptive? if so, would something like seasonale, the 3 month pill, be allowed because you wouldn't be niddah for that long (i'm assuming, from reading, that niddah means you're bleeding. pls correct me if you're wrong.) also, if you can be on the pill and are, does spotting count?

Grumpygirl, as you may have picked up, a bedikah is an internal check to see if you are bleeding. The bedikah is performed with a small, thin, soft, white cloth wrapped around one finger. (The thin & soft parts are for comfort. The white & cloth parts are required.)

As for birth control: Orthodox law does not give blanket permission, so far as I know, but there are *many* circumstances under which one might receive permission. Whenever birth control is allowed, the preference is for something the woman can use (because men have a specific commandment to procreate, but women don't), and the oral contraceptive is usually first choice because it does not put a physical barrier between the man & woman during intercourse.

It does depend on one's religious community. In some ultra-Orthodox circles, birth control might not be permitted except for health reasons. In my own circle, birth control is very typically used for spacing children, but is more uncommon before a first child; however, even then, some people receive permission because of financial or emotional concerns. In still more modern circles people might not ask permission, but simply decide that they had a good justification for using it.

I've been VERY tempted by Seasonale (once I finish trying to have children), and before that, by continuous birth control. But I've heard breakthrough bleeding is common. And while usually spotting does not cause you to become a niddah, I remember learning that it might be more of a question when you are on a pill that is known to cause uterine bleeding. In any case it certainly seems to me like it would increase the odds that you'll get into trouble.

For instance, I don't know if you would still have to do a bedikah on "anticipatory days" (which are days the halacha calculates your period might be coming, based on the data from your previous periods), but if you were spotting red on a bedikah, it would certainly make you a niddah.

And once niddah, you'd have a hard time getting tehorah again if you kept spotting.

Here's a Q&A about Seasonale from the Yoatzot website; there are a couple more, if you do a search.

eden, thank you for the explanation; it all makes sense now.

some encouraging news for you: nearly all birth control bills have made me breakthrough and spot (i have endo). but i went on seasonale nearly 3 months ago. i never, EVER, thought i'd have good luck as i'd tried continuous BCP on my old pills. the great news: i spotted for ONE day in this first cyle on them. one. i haven't bled this little while on the pill in nearly 20 years.

There's just no room to be matir red on a bedikah cloth.

On rereading this, I see it was a bit misleading as well. There can sometimes be a little leeway even with a bright red stain on a bedikah.

For instance, in some cases if you can prove the blood is from a wound, rather than uterine flow, you'd still be ok. It's worth asking your rabbi if you suspect you've scratched yourself.

But it's much much MUCH easier to be lenient about spotting when you haven't done a bedikah. Rule of thumb.

Eden did a really good job of answering your questions, GrumpyGirl, but I just wanted to add one she didn't really touch on... niddah means "separate" and refers to a status brought on by uterine bleeding that lasts until immersion in a mikvah... so it includes the "seven white days" aka "sheva neki'im" between bleeding and mikvah, not just the bleeding time.

Please, continue to ask away... and do read the glossary if you haven't done so yet.

Oh, and something else struck me... I'm unaware of an obligation to make yourself niddah, so if you have permission to use a BC like Seasonale and that keeps you from being niddah for an extended period of time (as do pregnancy and, for some, breastfeeding) or have some medical condition that leads to the same result, then there's no problem with that. The only times you automatically become niddah whether or not you see blood is on losing your virginity and after childbirth. At all other times blood is required.

Oh, except right before marriage, you have to go through the tehorah process even if you are pre-menarche, post-menopause, or don't bleed for some other reason. (I think even if you had a hysterectomy?)

The only times you automatically become niddah whether or not you see blood is on losing your virginity and after childbirth.

Or when the uterus is opened to a sufficient diameter. For instance, artificial insemination doesn't count, because the catheter being inserted into the uterus is so skinny the halacha doesn't call that an "opening." But some of the other unusual gyn procedures do.

Heh. We make a good team, Desde!

Grumpygirl, have we talked your ear off yet? ;)

definitely haven't talked my ear aoof, and going to go read the glossery right now. in the meantime, can someone explain the black panty-liner thinkg?

Or Gladrags! (Just not the white ones, obviously.)

What are gladrags?

Cloth menstrual pads, that snap or velcro around your underwear... or some just stay in place by the close fit of your underwear. Gladrags are one brand, there are others, and I make my own. (But I think they are modeled on gladrags -- a friend had loaned me some to try)

I don't mean to hijack the conversation, but I noticed Gladrags mentioned on a post of Michaela's, too. I've never heard of them before, and I must say, they look awfully uncomfortable. They actually remind me of a sample I saw of "women's devices" from the early 1900's.

Are they comfortable? I've always used regular white panty liners, but try not to use them when I'm tahor (so-called 'pure'). And if I have to, I keep my eyes closed ;)

Oh, except right before marriage, you have to go through the tehorah process even if you are pre-menarche, post-menopause, or don't bleed for some other reason. (I think even if you had a hysterectomy?)

Yes. I don't have my kallah notes in front of me (we finished yay! which is good bc i'm getting married REALLY SOON!) but this is because due to all the stress and emotions of the wedding and the excitment of being with a husband, the chazel (i think) said that (i'm paraphrasing) hormones can get out of wack and it's quite possible a post-menopausal women could bleed.

can someone else fill in the pieces i'm leaving out?

Here's an article on post-menopausal women & bleeding: Marriage after menopause from Nishmat's website.

My kallah teacher actually cited a story of a post-menopausal women (in her 60s)she knew who had bleeding before her remarriage.

fromBeneath, I find cloth menstrual pads to be unbelieveably more comfortable than paper, and it's actually the reason I cloth diaper my children (although my husband thinks it's the savings). Actually, I'm not as nice to them as I am to myself... the ones in diapers wear paper if we're traveling and also during stressful times when I can't deal with washing diapers, but I've never gone back. But then, the paper ones irritate me so much, especially panty liners and especially if I'm not currently bleeding.

Cloth pads are also much easier to change then underwear, especially if you wear tights or hose. (My kallah teacher told me to change my underwear twice a day during the sheva neki'im to avoid building up stains... I find it so much easier to just change my white flannel cloth liners.) They also don't have the same wet icky feeling next to your skin, despite the lack of "stay-dry liner," although I think some brands attempt that with a layer of fleece.

I wear them practically all the time, usually the colored ones, obviously, for protection against random discharge (like during pregnancy), urine leakage due to sneezing with a very full bladder, drippiness the morning after having relations with my husband, and, of course, if I'm expecting or have my period.

so basically, and i mean this with absolutely no disrespect, you're kind of in an "don't look or else... " situation with your underwear.

i don't know you how women do all of this, because if it were me i'd break all the rules because i'd forget them. then again, i'm a rebel anyway, likely why following my ancestral religion hasn't been a part of my life.

still, reading this blog has made me curious and wondering how i would handle such things as this. (i'm really the last person who should be asking questions about religion. my queries are usually based on breaking rules... ie, who do you do if... ? if you live in alaska and there's no sunset, how do you know it's shabbat? my questions once made an orthodox cube-mate at work want to strangle me.)

that said, even if i were observant, i'd have a hell of a time with this not looking at the toilet paper thing. between watching for signs of my endometriosis, and looking out for signs of my ulcerative colitis (not meaning to be gross here...), inspecting the TP has become a way of life.

in advance, i thank you for your patience with my ignorance and ridiculous questions. --alyssa

Here you go, Alyssa (aka grumpygirl):
When Does One Pray When There Is No Day
A Guide to Shabbos Observance and Prayer Times
in Alaska and Other Arctic Regions

See, we can answer any question here. ;-)

Also not meaning to be gross, but not looking at the TP was really hard for me. I still forget sometimes and look, which of course, causes all sorts of dilemmas for me. But, those dilemmas are training me to stop looking. Although, I sometimes have a problem with not looking, for the very reasons grumpygirl mentions. Sometimes the TP is the only indication of a problem. I wonder, if you have known medical problems that might display themselves on toilet paper, could you get a heter [special exception] to look?

And thanks, Desde, for your info on using Gladrags (and for being so straightforward - I've always wondered if being 'drippy' was normal, and I've been too chicken to ask anyone). It's definitely something I'll have to look into.

No problem... glad I could clear up that bit of mystery. Actually, the reason for the 5 days before the seven is because halachically you're "dripping" for 4 of those days, assuming you had relations right before you became niddah. That's why sometimes abstaining an extra day *before* your period starts can be used in conjunction with a short period to allow for an earlier hefsek taharah to get women with short cycles to mikvah before ovulation occurs. (Ok, that was a run-on sentence!)

As for looking at toilet paper and heters... it's not contrary to halacha to look, it's just easier to stay tahor if you don't, because of the rule that "if you don't know about it it doesn't count" and to avoid causing yourself questions. Rabbis don't like answering questions that shouldn't have been raised in the first place. It's just good advice. And if you *know* you have rectal bleeding (for example, with ulcerative colitis, I'm assuming that causes bleeding) then any blood you can see could be easily attributed to that, and you can assume that's what it is, unless you know better. Obviously, if you feel a flow of some sort, you're going to look. You won't "miss" getting your period. You really won't.

desde et alia, i know this will likely sound deeply paranoid... but doesn't it worry you not to look? as i mentioned, for me, at least, looking at the TP is a means of determining my health status; i have to be really knowledgable about my body and my illnesses to keep myself healthy.

but some illnesses start without pain or discomfort, just discoloration or blood. you won't know about these symptoms if they're happening to you because you're not looking. maybe it's just my years of being so conscious of it all the time, but it's a real way to know what's going on in your body. i'd hate to think that the act of not looking would cause someone undue harm in the long run, you know?

I have more to say on the looking v. not looking issue, but just wanted to quickly point you to this question which is relevant/helpful.

I see your point... and most of us have said we do occasionally look... especially if something "feels" wrong.

But think of it this way... for two weeks out of the month, we're not looking, but during the other two weeks, we're not only looking, we're doing internal examinations! (On anticipation days, and then after our periods for the hefsek taharah and subsequent bedikahs) If something's wrong, we actually are more likely to notice it, not less. During pregnancy, we're under a doctor's care, so even if we're not looking, someone is. (OKay, so internal exams happen only at the first visit and then near term to check for dilation, unless there are indications you need them more frequently.) Post-Partum, you bet we're looking, watching for signs that bleeding is coming to an end so we can start those internal examinations again (bedikos) and get to mikvah. Nursing clean? so we're not "looking," but T"H has a way of making us more aware of our bodies in general... if something feels wrong (and it doesn't have to be pain) I like to think I would notice. And "colored underwear" isn't necessarily black... and even on black, you'd notice anything bigger than spotting.

We're not trying to ignore problems, just not cause them. Make sense?

Thanks for this discussion, everyone! I am learning so much more...

desde, thank you (and thank g'd) for explaining. i thought y'all never looked.