Mayim Rabim

I definitely think of it as a chok (a law for which we cannot expect to find a rationale). Don't understand it, would never have chosen it, on more than one melodramatic occasion have thought "I can't wait for menopause," when we can just be instead of switching on and off. I do it as a sacrifice, an act of faith. And as a testament to all the generations of women before me and their acts of faith.

Particularly now that I know I'm infertile, I can't understand why the two halves of my cycle need to be highlighted this way. But even before that I dealt very badly with it, and would probably have gladly traded the excitement of reunion for not having to separate in the first place.

But I find it intriguing that it does make such a difference in excitement. And although I don't see it in my own relationship, I'm also intrigued by how some couples say it changes the way they learn to communicate with each other. It's hard for me to be sure there's no good reason to do this except that it's the law.

I also wonder how much of the inexplicable part has to do with the rabbinic vs. the biblical, or maybe even with touch vs. sex. I'm in a somewhat different place to evaluate that now, but I'm not quite done working on a full-length post about it.

I'm glad you mentioned the infertility angle. Though thank G-d I have not had trouble conceiving up until now I am at a point where I want to get pregnant but can't try because of random medical stupidity that is beyond my control (beginning with a miscarriage in the fall and probably ending with surgery.) This is definitely part of the reason why the cyclical nature of things has been bothering me even more so than other times.

As for the more exciting sex, wait until you G-d willing have much extended together time and get back to me.

Oh, and I probably think "I can't wait until menopause" a few times a week.

I agree. I find that with hormones and all the daily stresses of life there are already plenty of ups and downs without adding an enforced 2 weeks of depression for the sake of 3-4 days of excitement (i find thats how long it takes before we forget about being in niddah and get used to being available to each other. Not in a bad way, but comfortable like you said). Its an added stress, and I find the emotional ups and downs exhausting and emotionally time-consuming. I think I would definetly prefer to do without the intense longing and excitement at least at this stage in my life (married 5 years, 2 kids). And I cant imagine how cruel it would be for someone battling infertility. I think its one of those laws that was made as a generalisation and that does not improve the lives of everyone. Although I do believe that a 7-day break (as per the original intention) would work better at least for me. I wouldnt feel so deprived and the ratio of 1week off, 3 on, seems healthier.
PS. My friends and I used to play the game 'if you could have the rabbis turn around and announce that one halacha no longer applied, which one would it be?? - since i have been married, the answer is ALWAYS nidda.

I'm a secular Jew and this site is a fascinating window into a world that is completely alien to me. I was struck by Tehilla's comment that "a 7-day break (as per the original intention) would work better at least for me". Can someone explain when the 7-day break became a 3-week break? How do such changes come about?

Tehilla, I tend to agree with you about the seven day thing.

Swurgle, it is not a three week break, it is a minimum of 12 days. For most people it is 12-14 days. The short version of it is: based on the day of your halakhic cycle, red discharge would render you either a nidda or a zava. The Torah specifies the purification process for both nidda and zavah. A niddah has to wait until she finished bleeding (about a week) and then can go to the mikvah. A zavah must count an additional seven "clean" days after she has stopped bleeding (and according to the rabbis the earliest she can start counting is day five). At some point 2500 years ago "the women" decided that it was too difficult to keep track of which bleeding was niddah bleeding and which bleeding was zavah bleeding so they took a stringency upon themselves to consider all bleeding zavah bleeding and wait the seven clean days in all cases. This has become the custom, and thus the practice of observant women even today.

Avigayil, thanks for clarifying. Two additional questions: First, what is zavah? (it's not in the glossary)

Second, if this lengthening of the halakhic cycle was a custom that was self-imposed by women 2,500 hundred years ago for their convenience, then it's not rabbinic or biblical in origin. Why can't modern women do as their forebearers did 2,500 years ago, and take matters into their own hands and revert back to the original practice as defined in the torah?

Zava is just the term for a women who has vaginal bleeding on x days during the month. A nidda is a women who has vaginal bleeding on y days during the month. This is based on a specific calendar.

Your other question is a good one. Minhag (custom) in Jewish law has legal significance, and sometimes it is easier to undo or be lenient on an actual halakha than it is on a minhag. This stringency of the women is brought down in the Talmud, it is viewed as a very positive thing, and because it has been done for so long probably does have the status of Jewish law. (I am a little rusty on this). Another reason why we can't revert back to this is because I believe we have lost track of the niddah/zavah calendar, so we don't know which days are nidda days and which days are zava days. If you haven't already you should probably look at www.yoatzot.org which has a lot more detailed information on the technical side of nidda observance.

I find this website fascinating and often very sad. Especially comments like "there are already plenty of ups and downs without adding an enforced 2 weeks of depression for the sake of 3-4 days of excitement". When my husband and I got married 2 years ago, we made a commitment to keeping all halachot of T"H, just as we keep all other bodies of halachot. Then came the tears, and the depression, and the fights and the aching misery, and the inability to concentrate on reading a book in the same room, and the bitter despair when I couldn't always get a hefsek on Day 5. And I was on a 7 week birth control cycle in order to make this easier! So we gave up the prescribed harchakot after a year and made our own very minimal ones: no kissing on the lips, no undressing, and no sleeping in the same bed. And when I'm in niddah I go to work every day with a smile instead of sitting home crying. Sex on mikvah night is not as great as it was, and the difference is so not worth the pain. So the question I ask over and over again when reading this website is: what makes you decide to keep doing this each month? I had imagined before reading this site that couples who kept harchakot were in a balance between desire and faith that made such a lifestyle emotionally acceptable. But many of you are saying that it's not emotionally accceptable: that you're angry and sad and often depressed. So how and why do you keep it up? I hope some of you will respond.

Because as I said in my post, I don't believe that there is much room for personal autonomy within halakha, so even if I don't like what I have to do, I'll do it anyway. IMO Halakha does not exist to be kept only to the level that you are comfortable with. That's why I do it.

(I'm finally catching up, post-Pesach!)

In answer to your question, Rowena, the discomfort, pain and sometimes anger I have to go through for not being able to eat in a regular restaurant with my secular family and non-Jewish friends is not something I like having to deal with, but not keeping kosher is not an option for me. It's the same with the halacha of t'h. It's not always pleasant, nor satisfying, nor appealing, but there's no room for me *not* to observe halacha (noting that I'm still in the learning process, and am not completely machmir [stringent] on all the harchakot yet).

My answer is to find ways to deal with the things that make me sad or angry or frustrated by reading/posting/commenting on this blog, talking with friends, and learning so I can see where I might be lenient. Why I keep it up is basically because G-d said to. (Although I would like to find the women who supposedly asked the rabbis to extend the Torah-mandated 7 days to 12 days, and slap 'em upside the head.)

from Beneath, I would have gladly joined you in slapping those women around, until I found this Gemorah Shuir explaining the difference between zava and niddah. It's a pdf file, see page 5 if you want to be totally confused. I'll try to summarize it, but I think it will take a whole post, not just a side comment! So in the interest of circular links (since the post links back to this discussion), here's my post on the subject.

Why do we do it? Because some who were raised to follow halacha whether or not we agree with it and personally feel that it is comfortable to do. It is the same with some who decide to "eat out dairy" and will go eat in a non-kosher pizza store and have dairy food there. No one said that the halachos are easy. Or even able to understand them all, which is why we have Chukim. I do not understand this halacha. I do not understand why we are so strict and why a lot of the chumras are implaced. But I follow them and yes, the internet gives me the anonyminity to vent out and share with others and let them know they are not alone with thier feelings as well. We will all get our reward in the world to come...