Mayim Rabim

I was once on the phone, talking to my mother, and I asked her to hold on a minute so that I could adjust my snood. My mother isn't comfortable with the whole hair-covering thing, and her immediate reaction was, "You don't need to cover your hair to talk to your mother on the phone!"

She's right of course, but that wasn't why I had the snood on. For one thing, there was a big picture window in my apartment, facing Commonwealth Avenue.

But the real reason, probably the same reason the mikvah attendants do it, is that it's just part of my clothes. You wouldn't expect the mikvah attendant to strip off her shirt and just wear a bra, or switch to a halter top inside the mikvah building (say, on a very hot day) but you could in theory apply the same argument... it's not like any men are going to walk in.

You see the snood, hat, scarf, wig, etc., as something external, more like a pair of gloves, that you take off as soon as you walk in from the cold. She sees it as a piece of clothing, like a shirt, that you don't take off unless you're getting undressed. Maybe a better analogy would be shoes, because to some people, you aren't dressed without your shoes, and others slip them off at every opportunity.

It's all a matter of perspective.

I wrestle with this myself and I think Miriam is right. When I'm home with female guests only, I never cover my hair. Why would I? But when I go to therapy, where I'm completely alone with her, I never take my snood off. I've wanted to sometimes, but then stopped; it feels a tiny bit too much like I'm undressing. Which is a comfortable thing when I'm at home, but not so much when I'm out in the world.

When I'm at a female doctor's office I never know what I'm going to do. It feels ridiculous to be 99% undressed with a snood still on, but sometimes I do want that bit of formality anyway. I also never know what to do if I need to come back out of the mikvah prep room to get something from the front desk: come out in my robe and bare head, on the assumption that everyone there's going to look like that in a few minutes and it's no big deal? Or get all dressed again, in case I meet someone fully dressed who's just stopping in, and I feel like an idiot?

Then there was the night I went to mikvah not realizing I had nothing on my head altogether, but that's another story... let's just say I was very glad that there was a hood on my coat, and that when I got where I was going it wouldn't matter anymore. :)

Quite fascinating! At my mikveh the ladies also wear a white coat (almost like a lab coat) .. which also gives a sense (to me) of unity. I think I would be surprised (and a bit worried) if they didn't come to me in a tzniusdik manner.

My hair covering is becoming less of something that I take off at every opportunity, and an item that is part of me.

The same is true with my mikveh experience. I'm getting used to the cycles and what my husband and I can and can't do at certain times.

It's me.

We have some attendants who cover their hair, and some who don't. I always notice whether their hair is covered, but I don't care one way or the other. But I always cover my hair when going to the mikvah.

I think along the same lines as Persephone - when I'm among female friends, I uncover my hair, but at the doctor's or other places, I keep it covered. It's too much like undressing. Unless, of course, I'm undergoing a procedure, *then* I'll take my headcovering off. But if it's just an exam, I leave it on.

I have a feeling many first-time mikvah users are surprised by the air of modesty that pervades mikvaot (at least, all the ones I've been to). Indeed, it really is quite astounding, given that they're places where the primary activity involves one woman watching another do something while completely naked, and where that nakedness is utterly essential to the main activity.

I think that the way the mikvah attendants dress and carry themselves plays a large role is setting that tone. Halachically, I don't think there would be any problem with mikvah attendants walking around in bras, but we would lose that sense of modesty, to our detriment. The modest ambience of the mikvah says to us that, regardless of what we're (not) wearing, "this is private." Our sex lives are private. And our non-sex lives should continue to be conducted with an awareness of personal privacy - the air of modesty and privacy at the mikvah gives those of us who are having sex an extra reminder that modesty still applies to our interacions with others, that the guard we let down with our husbands shouldn't be let down with everyone.

It doesn't matter to me one way or another if the mikvah attendant coves her hair, since I've never really associated that with modesty anwyay, particularly if she's wearing a shaitl, but I do appreciate the respect for modesty that I've perceievd in all my mikvah attendants to date.

That being said, it wouldn't worry me - as it would kisuirosh - if the mikvah attendant "didn't come to me in a tzniusdik manner," since, well, since there's nothing to worry about, really. If she's there, someone in a position of authority has approved her. So what's the worry? That because she doesn't match your halachic choices, you can't trust her to make sure you've gone completely underwater?

More than that, though, I'm troubled by kisuirosh's implied assumption that her definition of "a tzniusdik manner" is so authoritative that others should be held to it, and that another's person's different standard of tzniut is *not* tzniut. Particularly as it seems from context that she was referring to a woman covering (or not covering) her hair in front of another woman - which, AFAIK, doesn't violate any halachot of tzniut and is much more an issue of personal sensibilities.

There's a concept in Judaism that the "letter of the law is the spirit of the law." But something like tzniut is a bit subjective. To me, because I also cover my hair pretty much all the time, uncovering it among a group of female friends without a specific reason (like, we're all giving each other haircuts or trying on sheitels or snoods together) would feel the same as undressing in other ways. I would feel just as untzniusdik without my snood as without my shirt, would be extremely aware of the fact that my hair was uncovered, and uncomfortable until I could get my snood back on.

Michaela, on the other hand (and correct me if I'm wrong) at least at the time she wrote this, feels a bit uncomfortable to be covering her hair in the first place, so she has the opposite reaction from me. She is extremely aware the entire time she is wearing a hat that it is there, and is uncomfortable until she can get it off.

I don't see an implied assumption in kisuirosh's words that her definition is authoritative, so much as a general comfort level (hers) that she is trying to express. She also struggles with haircovering and so that is uppermost in her thoughts.

However, her choice of name for herself doesn't need to mean that "in a tzniusdik manner" couldn't refer to the woman's actions as much as her state of dress. As you mention, the mikvah is a place where modesty reigns supreme, and the mikvah attendant brazenly staring at my body would put me off, much more so than whether or not her hair was covered. If she carried herself modestly, then her hair doesn't need to be covered at all. If her behavior bothers me, even if "someone in a position of authority approved her," then that's still a problem, perhaps one that has to be brought to the attention of that person in authority.