Mayim Rabim

Well, I think it is different... mikvah use requires an awful lot of preparation and forethought. The week or more of forethought is why today's poskim are so totally against the practice: They'd rather believe that any incidence of premarital sex is a momentary abberation, that the people involved got "caught up in the moment" if you will, and certainly hadn't planned on it in advance, knowing that it's forbidden.

However, having been to college and being neither blind nor deaf (and I think I might have noticed even if I were! People are so not subtle.) I know better. The society we live in (non-Jews, specifically, but Jews get caught up in the non-Jewish mores around them) by and large does not see premarital sex as a "problem." Adultery, now that's still a problem, but as long as no one involved is married, it's "fine." In fact, the Christian right gets a lot of flak for pushing abstinance education.

I'm sure there's a heavy amount of guilt being carried around by these (young?) men and women who have "given into temptation," but once you've crossed that line, it's very hard to stop and say, "well, that's one aveirah I won't do again." After all, let's face it, sex is fun. (I can say that, because I'm married.)

So I have to agree, in part, that just because you've made one "mistake" and even plan to do so again, it's not a reason to give up Orthodoxy altogether. It might even be a reason to work on improving yourself in every other way, to work on your observance of other mitzvos.

But I still wouldn't recommend using the mikvah to an unmarried woman planning on engaging in pre-marital sex. Davening with tefilin the morning after is very different from taking what is essentially an aveirah and trying to wrap it in spirituality. It doesn't really make it better... unless you're playing by the yichud laws of marriage, (complicated laws by where an unmarried man and woman secluded together for a specific amount of time, essentially long enough to have sex, even if they don't, become married, provided there are witnesses to the fact that they were alone.) in which case you wind up married that way. May as well have the party too, then, you know?

By definition, there is some degree of premeditation in a "tefilin date", but I agree with Desde that it is significantly different level of premeditation than mikvah.

And Ruchama - as far as pretending it never happened - at least for the women, that's only true if she then lies to her prospective spouse (assuming he's someone else) and the m'sader kidushin. It may affect the kesubah.

Michal - I found these two questions & answers on the Yoatzot site. They both seem to imply that the text of the ketubah need not be altered just because a woman has engaged in premarital sex:

Question A
Question B

I'm wondering about your use of the phrase, "at least for the woman." If the text of the ketubah remains the same, how is it any worse for a woman in this situation to lie to her future husband (or the officiant) than it would be for a groom in a similar situation?

While not in any way advocating men lying to their future wives about this (or any) topic, there are nevertheless a few differences which pop into my mind:
1) As mentioned in the yoatzot questions you linked to above, the halacha of seperating after wedding night does not apply if she is not a virgin. (Pre-wedding mikvah preperation may be slightly different as well.)
2) Depending on type of premarital relationship (and maybe who one holds by) there are problems with marrying Kohanim, and after some long-term relationships possibly needing a get.

Good points, CYA... by "type of premarital relationship," do you mean if the man she had premarital sex with was non-Jewish? (Which would make a woman forbidden to a Kohein) Or is there another aspect I'm not seeing?

Thank you all for your comments. I can see where you're coming from, Desde and Michal, but I still support those who try to incorporate Judaism into their sex lives even when their behavior isn't quite "halachic." This perspective is rooted in my particular understanding of halachah and human nature, which is probably different from yours, so I won't try to make an objective case for it.

The halachic discussion you've begun here is interesting. Desde: I'm going to guess that CYA is differentiating between intercourse and other types of sexual interaction. I'm not sure whether anyone regards kissing (for example) as the halachic equivalent of sex, but I think I recall some disagreement over the status of penetration with something other than a penis. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any primary source material.

Michaela -

I'm not saying that the lying is any different, just that relevant to the kesubah (And niddah, as someone else pointed out) it can matter.

Ruchama - "type of relationship" might just refer to long term relationship with one person, vs. multiple partners - I remember learning something about the latter possibly categorizing a woman as an "isha zonah", creating issues for a cohen. as well as relations with a non-Jew, as Desde mentioned.

Ah. Thank you for the clarification.

i find the concept of "tefilin dates" kind of gross, and kind of sad.

I chuckled at this topic at first but learned the hard way not to judge others
I'm a divorced frum mother of 2 in my thirties. Last year my husband and I divorced. I had been emotionally abused and was depressed. A couple I am friendly with who had helped see me through the divorce introduced me to man they had met at a coffee shop who seemed quite nice. He was not quite religious enough for tachlit but this was just supposed to be for me to get out a bit.
We dated during a week last summer when my kids were with their father so I was all alone in our apartment. He was quite charming and attractive and I enjoyed his company and attention so I invited him in for a coffee after our date. While I have always been religious I was feeling a need to escape a bit and being we were all alone together whn he made a slight pass I said to myself "you're a free woman what's the harm in not being strictly shommer negiah?" Well what began as hugging and kissing quickly escalated to much more and he ended up spending the entire night with me. Thankfully we didn't do "the deed" but we did come extrermely close to that and I am embarrased to admit that we were over on the issir of zara b'batala. I felt awful and ashamed the next day and the relationship quickly ended. Just saying that things like this could happen. Never thought it would be me.

We are certainly all susceptable to succumbing to temptation, particularly at certain times in our lives, so I do think it's important to try not to pass judgement. However, in the context of this conversation, I do think it's significant that you, Bracha, did not originally intend to spend the night with this man. That is a bit different from bringing tefilin along on a date with the intention of using them in the morning, or going to the mikvah in anticipation of premarital sex.

On the other hand again, life is complicated. Sometimes people decide (actually decide) to do things they wouldn't have previously imagined doing. Halachic observance teaches us to be mindful of our behavior, and I think it's worth mainting observance to the greatest extent possible even when we know that our behavior is less than ideal.

Thanks for the comment Ruchama. I really beat myself up over that night. I also had mixed feelings about lot's of personal stuff about my divorce. I appreciate if anyone had a simmilar experience if they would share and tell how they made teshuva or if they felt it neccessary since a part of me was almost glad that had had happened. Hard to explain. Does anybody know how serious is zara be'betala

Hmm..Guess I'm the only naughty one on this sight!!!

I would doubt that.
but could someone please define zara be'betala.
I even tried googling it, but to no avail!

That's when a man passes semen not into the vagina

Thank you. I am in a long term "non-marital" relationship, and have frequently thought about commiting to going to the mikvah. This (and the comments) gave me a new perspective on the idea.

I guess what this comes down to is what's better sinning in the heat of the moment or planning to sin and trying to make it as kosher as possible.
I have no answers but I find comfort in hearing that others are in the same boat.

Rivka, which way are you leaning on this?

Sorry for the anonymity, Anyway, Bracha, I completely sympathize, having been in a similar situation in my late teens. (Such a turbulent time that was!) I don't think you're going to get a lot of people coming out of the woodwork to say, yes I sinned too! if you know what I mean. Doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people thinking, I know exactly how she feels.

Makes you appreciate the laws of yichud. How little a step it is from hugging and kissing to zara be'betala. It feels like it should be a bigger step, until you're in that situation.

It sure does. I have dated a bit since then and am being a lot more careful. I am still uncertain as to where I want to be with recepct to yichud and negiah. Who said this part of my life would be easy!!

can someone explain some of these laws to me? for instance, i think that after you're divorced or widowed you can't be intimate with any man. is hand holding allowed, or is physical contact completely prohibited.

i'm assuming this means you won't be going to the mikveh, so you won't be following the harchakot (if this is the right term) in regard to passing things to one another, etc.

I think in some ways it's harder when you're not shomer negiah. because then you have to decide where to draw the line. It causes you to do some real soul searching to see what's right for you. but I wonder if once you make that decision for yourself if it's easier to keep to it. From what I've seen (especially on a college campus), it was the shomer negiah folks who, once they slipped up, let things go too far (like "if I've already messed up, what's a little more"). Of course the vast majority of my shomer negiah friends kept to it, but the few who didn't let things go pretty far. maybe farther than they would have if they'd given it some real serious thought beforehand.

Also, Bracha, I wonder if you were more tempted because you'd already been married before. I wonder if things like negiah are easier to keep to the first time around. Good luck figuring out what's right for you!

Thanks Abybelibi. I was an emotional wreck at that time from my bitter divorce. My ex told me things like "no man would ever want you" so in awa y I was out to prove to myself he was wrong. Also at that time I was weak in my faith and felt that I had paid too much dues from my divorce and deserved a good time. I was really on auto-pilot and like you said I hadnt really thought thru the limits so I fell thru the cracks. I really got upset when I realised what could easily have happened spiritualy and physically (like an unplanned pregenancy) and what it would do to my family and me.
I'm still a ffraid of what the future may bring if I'm not more careful or slip up again!!

Grumpygirl, like everything else, it's complicated.

Yichud refers to being alone together with someone of the opposite sex. (Who isn't your spouse, sibling, (grand)parent or (grand)child.) You're not supposed to do it, because it can be dangerous! Being "alone" with the door open or in a place where people are likely to walk in at any time (neighbor has a key and has been instructed to drop in, for example) or in a public place like a hotel lobby is usually fine. Traditional dating spots for frum teens (besides restaurants) are hotel lobbies, airports, etc... public places where you can really talk. A movie is not a frum date.

Shomer negiah refers to not touching a member of the opposite sex (with the same above family exceptions) for an intimate reason. For example, hugging, kissing, holding hands all count. Shaking hands is negotiable, although many try to avoid it if possible. Having your teeth cleaned (or even your cervix checked!) by a professional is not a "negiah" problem. The intent makes a huge difference.

Harchakot are only for someone you're actually married to... since a good portion of the time you are permitted to sleep together, harchakot were instituted to help you remember that right now you're not... passing something (carefully, to avoid skin contact) to a man you are not married to is never a problem. Some are careful to avoid it anyway, though... I've been in frum stores in NYC where my change was put down on the counter rather than handed to me.

Oh, I should say, not just teens. Frum people dating in general. Sometimes they even meet in someone's living room, and are given a certain amount of privacy... but knowing that your parents or your parents' friends are right in the next room is pretty off-putting, which makes it not officially yichud.

Thanks Desde. I am still curious what the usual practice is amongst orthodox older singles and second timers like myself. Is there a kosher enough "middle ground" or is there only the 2 extremes of complete observance on one side and premarital sex on the other?

That was a very clear explanation, Desde, much better than I could have done! Just a side quibble - movies are considered perfectly fine dates in my circle (Centrist Orthodox).

The objections that I remember coming up are (1) content, but that depends entirely on what movie you pick, and (2) the fact that you can't really talk much -- but of course you can talk before, or after. I think there are circles where it's not considered appropriate to waste so much time on a date not talking, because you're supposed to be deciding whether to marry each other, not hanging out... but in my circle getting to know each other was a bit more relaxed than that.

I assume in this context the objection you're referring to the fact that the lights are out, and some people use this as an opportunity to make out. I think frum people on dates might try not to sit in the most isolated part of the theater. I can see why it would be a measure of extra caution not to sit in a movie theater with your date at all. But technically speaking, I don't believe even an empty theater is yichud, because ushers or other moviegoers might come in at any time.

Bracha, sorry, I don't have any idea, being (Thank G-d) happily married from my early 20s. I'm curious what actual practice is, but I think what it all comes down to is deciding what you're comfortable with. Obviously, the halacha is clear on this issue, but it's harder on the older not-marrieds (whether never married or just not currently married) which is where the whole concept of tefillin dates comes from in the first place.

Of course, if you're dating a man who is shomer negiah, you'll need to be too, and if you're dating a man who's more than willing to go all the way... how does that reflect on his committment in other areas of Judaism? (And maybe it doesn't, but it's something to take into consideration.)

But in-between... I'm reminded of high school, (back in the days when I was a secular if "old-fashioned" teenager) where we were all trying to decide our boundaries. Would we wait for marriage for sex? Were we willing to go to Third? (Pretty much anything but all the way) Second? (drawing a line at the waist) First? (Heavy kissing, also known as "French Kissing) I don't think any of us figured we'd stop with hand holding and/or hugging, but that's a choice for you too... but you need to draw that line in the sand, and stick to it.

Remember, negiah is fun! Which is why it's so hard to stop. But at the end of the day, you need to be able to live with yourself. And that's what's most important.

Eden, of course, you're right. It's been a while since I was in the dating pool, and the circles I move in today wouldn't do movies... but I was with a more "centrist" crowd when I first became frum, and we did go to the movies. We also went to the grocery store on dates, because it was a small town and there just wasn't much else to do!

Nowadays, though, there's just so much objectionable content in movies... sexual overtones and undertones are the least of it. We still watch the occasional movie, but we rent them, and only when I'm tahor, so there's an outlet for all the sexual energy they tend to generate. Not every movie has that problem, but enough of them, even when that wasn't the point!

Are there really unmarried women who go to mikveh? I've always heard rumors but know of no such case. How are these women trated in the mikveh?

Desde -

As far as change being put onto the counter, my impression (I've seen this a lot in frum stores) was always that it was easier than worrying about whether or not the other person was going to be "careful enough" not to touch their hand.

Bracha, I guess my position comes a lot from the fact that in terms of "throwing the party" as it were...well, we may never get there. We think of each other as life partners, but he and I have various reasons for not doing the whole shindig. On the other hand, I'm becoming more observant, and going to the mikvah seems like one of those things that I can do that will help keep me in the moment in terms of faith.

But I think it's a very personal decision. I am of the opinion that it is better to "sin" in a conscious way and to take steps that it be as kosher as possible, but I can definitely see the other side of it. I guess I just feel that since I'm imperfect, I want to be so as perfectly as possible, if that makes sense.

Rivka I wish you lots of luck in finding your place in Judaism. I just know the pain I suffered from commiting an indiscresion and the confusion I feel of not being able to reconcile my needs at this time with what is permissible.

As an aside does Judaism allow only for tachlit dating? I know I was not ready for tachlit last year but sill felt the need for adult company. I guess this practice is frowned upon

Thank you all for helping me get this off my chest. It's not something I could easily confess to even some of my closest married friends

Thanks again all. If anyone has any comments on tachlit vs stam dating for an older 2nd timer please feel free. Also any advice on setting limits oc touching would be appreciated

Hi, my comment will be from a slightly different perspective Bracha, but i know that as an older dater (not married)i was determined to be shomer negiah. Until I had been dating (my future husband) for a while and then the attraction was too great. Ultimately we ended up going a heck of a lot further than i would ever have thought I would and i suffered a great deal of guilt even after we were married (then came the issue of niddah which we were obviously pretty bad at too) especially about the zera levatalah issue.
Basically i found once you got started it was almost impossible not to have things come to their logical conclusion. WHich is a great argument for being shomer negiah and holding strictly to the laws of yichud etc. But i dont think the guilt helped me or made hashem any happier with me.
And i do think that having once been married, it is harder to stop a physical relationship at 'first base'. THat might work when you are sixteen adn never been kissed but not at 30-something when you know what comes next. I dont know if this is helpful, but i hope you find happiness first by yourself and then please g-d with someone who will treat you well. Behatzlacha.

Bracha - your reaction and need to prove your ex-husband wrong sound totally normal to me (and your ex sounds like a total creep). But now that you've seen how it makes you feel, I seriously doubt you're likely to slip up again.

I assume there's a lot of 'middle ground' in practice. I never considered either extreme as a possibility for myself. but since I was just doing what I was raised to think was right, I never felt bad about it either. Obviously you have much more mixed feelings based on your background.

I agree with Desde about drawing a line and sticking to it. or at least only changing it when you know you're thinking clearly. and it doesn't need to be the same line for all points in a relationship either. a serious relationship is very different from a first date, and once you're engaged, you might feel differently about doing something with someone you will marry than doing the same thing with someone else (and especially a string a someone elses).

and as Desde pointed out, you should think about the kind of man you would want and how his opinions on negiah reflect his level of observance in other matters. If you're looking for right-wing orthodox, then you're probably stuck being shomer negiah, but if you like modern orthodox, then you probably have a lot more wiggle room. Also, letting things go too far takes two, and if you're dating someone who understands that this is a big deal for you and can relate to that, then he's far less likely to try to push it in the first place.

I think that by tachlit dating you mean dating only for the purpose of looking for a spouse. Then that certainly depends on you and your community. I personally see nothing wrong with dating for fun, as long as you're only dating men who you would consider marrying if it works out long term. Otherwise you're looking for trouble and could end up hurting him and/or yourself.

Thanks again all. I now know that I am not alone in dealing with this issue. The main difference between now and when I was younger is that now I am a role model for my kids ans being a single mother it is an extra responcibility. I agrre that it is very differnt now after having been married then as a younger adult. The expereince does make a difference. It is all very relevent now as I have begun to see a gentleman

A question on AbyBelibi's comment... I don't mean this in a criical way, only ignorant. You write:
"If you're looking for right-wing orthodox, then you're probably stuck being shomer negiah, but if you like modern orthodox, then you probably have a lot more wiggle room"
I'm wondering, are there really Modern Orthodox Rabbis who allow negiah in the context of dating (not talking about handshakes, etc.), or is it just the case that more people who consider themselves Modern Orthodox don't necessarily follow the rulings of the Rabbis on this particular issue? Thanks.

anonymous -

The latter. (Someone correct me if you know differently, but) to the best of my knowledge it's just that the individuals tend to not be quite as strict in this area, not that the Rabbis have stated that it is permissible.

I have no idea if there are any modern Orthodox rabbis who would allow it. I was just refering to what people do in actual practice.

I've really become curious what the actual practice is amongst the various types of orthodoxy. For myself before my marriage I considered myself centrist leaning right and was completely shomer negiah. Since my marriage I am leaning left and had that one experience I wrote about. At the momment I am dating and havent yet arrived a consistant practice. If you would like to ananomously reveal what your practice was before or after marriage and catagorize yourself as either modern, centrist or right wing it would be helpful to know what degree is usually practiced

I have a lot of older single friends who are either never married or were married once.

Their "tachlis" dating is similar to a young person's shidduchim, but not exactly. After all, there are usually kids involved, and it's not only a matter of liking each other, it's fitting into the family too.

So - whereas the date involves talking, it's not only talking. It's relating to each other, verbally and non verbally.

Not that movies necessarily enter into the picture - but I wouldn't think a couple like this only sits in an airport or hotel lounge, either.

Back from vacation what an interesting and helpful discussion in helping me sort out my post-marriage dating life. Please feel free to comment further here or by email

I attend a Modern Orthodox shul in Washington, DC, and I can say, without reservation, that Modern Orthodox Rabbis would not allow premarital relations of any kind...sex, holding hands, kissing, etc. Their congregants range from those who do not hold to these rules at all, all the way to those who say they are 'modern orthodox' and hold to these rules as strictly as someone who is Lubavitch or just extremely orthodox.

I don't know how many M.O. shuls there are in D.C. now - I'm from Arlington btw - but the rabbi from one of them, at least, was my Stern College professor when he was single, and was a fine, frum man.

How people equate M.O. with "not being so religious" is beyond me.

Sara - I don't think anyone is equating MO with "not so religious". just with more varied practice. Personally, I don't think that not being shomer negiah makes one non-religous. I think there is room for different valid interpretations on this issue.

Wow it's been a while. People are still seeing my posts. I am still wrestling with the issue and over waht I did. If anyone would like to email me please feel free. I have just resumed dating again btw

Abybeleibi I so agree with you

Assuming one is not shommer neghia does anybody have any pointers on how to discuss appropriate boundaries befor they become a major issue. This can all be rather arkward and confusung

very awkward. but necessary. maybe it's easier to discuss what you are ready to do, than to discuss what it is that you are not going to do. and set a general rule like "nothing new unless we discuss it first". but if you are dating religious men I would think that they would already know that there will definitely be boundaries somewhere. non-religious men could be a different matter.

I think the general rule that worked for me (now married) was 'if you're too embarrassed to discuss it, you shouldn't do it'. Yes, it's awkward, but a lot less awkward that having one person rush into something that the other person isn't ready for!

I'm more than a little startled at this notion that not being shomer negiah means you must be having sex, or that sleeping over means you must be having sex. (I come from a rather Jewishly uneducated background, and had never heard of 'shomer negiah' until I'd finished college--at a very liberal top secular college in the US, where not having sex was the choice of a quiet but sizable minority of students). For us, holding hands was not a big deal, but sex was a VERY big deal. That's a huge difference in attitudes...

I spent the night with a few guys before my marriage, never made any attempt to be shomer negiah, and yet I didn't have sex until I was married. Neither did my husband. I don't pretend that our experience is the norm among people who aren't shomer negiah and went to co-ed secular colleges...but we exist.

The first time I ever saw tefillin was after spending the night (not having sex; sleeping on the couch) at a boyfriend's apartment. I was shocked by them--tefillin weren't part of the world I grew up in. That same ex-boyfriend taught me that somebody like me could be shomer shabbos and shomer kashrut (I grew up Reform, OK? I thought that Jewish observance was Mea Shearim or nothing. Observant Conservative was a choice that never crossed my mind).

I got married, and that ex-boyfriend danced at my wedding, just as I danced at his. I keep a kosher home, and am (mostly) shomer shabbat, to my parents' considerable shock. No regrets here about Tefillin dates. And no, I don't think we were hypocrites.

I am a Modern Ortho single living on the Upper West Side. No one in my circle is shomer negiah, but only one of my friends has actual sex. The rest of us pretty much do "everything but." In all my experiences, I only had to tell someone once that I wasn't going to have sex with him, I just said (while we were fooling around and he asked) Not gonna happen... With everyone else, it was implied that we weren't going to.

Regarding the issue of zera l'vatala vs. premarital sex, from what I remember, isn't zera l'vatala a "lesser" sin? Having sex when in nidda is punishable by karais (being cut off from the Jewish nation), and as far as I know, zera levatala is not.

I am currently dating someone who has recently told me that although he is a committed individual in every other area of his Torah life he has previously been in physical relationships. He has drawn the line at sex, but that is about it. In one of his relationships the woman went to the Mikvah so there would be no issue of approaching a woman who is in niddah. Although this is a highly unorthodox way to avoid the dirabanon halacha, it works on some level. But, I am confused about this part of him and dont understand the context. Is it possible for this to be an isolated attitude that is not reflective of a general weakness with Halacha? I have always been shomer negia and never thought I would be dating someone who was raised relegious, knew the Halacha and disregarded it anyway. He says that is not as uncommon as I would like to think among singles in their mid and late 20s- however, somehow- I dont care how common or uncommon it is...I still feel like it is wrong and a generally bad sign for future Halachic observance. Any thoughts? I am currently facing the choice of either breaking up or moving forward and am finding it to be a difficult subject to bring up with any of my relegious friends.

Laura, that's a tough one. I know it would make me uncomfortable as well. At least Nice Jewish Girl -- who felt she had come to the end of her robe and was emotionally unable to continue being completely shomer negiah -- still felt that what she was doing was wrong al pi halacha, and didn't feel that she had made an irrevocable decision either. She certainly wasn't as blase' about it as you seem to be describing.

On the other hand, I knew at least one guy in college (who I wasn't dating) raised Orthodox, considered himself Orthodox, who felt no compulsion to be shomer negiah before marriage, but assured us (it was a group discussion) that he intended to fully keep T"H after marriage, and he saw no contradiction. I'm no longer in touch with him to see if he followed through, even if I would feel comfortable asking him.

I think it is a by-product of exposure to a secular society that is so not-tzinus, that thinks modesty and the dignity of the human body is "old-fashioned and prudish" and cannot wrap its mind around the concept that you might actually want to cover your body with decent clothing on the street.

So, not knowing the guy or the situation at all, I would say that this in and of itself is not necessarily a deal-breaker, but you do need to figure out whether the two of you really see eye to eye on all the other major halachic and hashkafik issues. You may want someone who is more interested in halacha for halacha's sake than in whether a particular way of keeping or disregarding a halacha is "commonly observed" by those around you.

hatzlacha!

Laura - I think this could well be an isolated halachic aspect. However, it's probably a sign that he's coming from a different sort of community (and circle of friends) than you. This may or may not bother you. As long as he is not pushing you to no longer be shomer negiah, I think it's not a deal-breaker. but I wonder if the two of you see yourselves in the same community/shul/schools for future children...

some questions you may want to think about - was all this a function of never being committed to shomer negiah (sn) in the first place, or fallout from suddenly being in a less structured environment (post HS and more independence)?

is YOUR relationship with him sn (sounds like), and is he OK with that?

does "previously" mean and now he wouldn't, or that the opportunity isn't presenting itself? !!!

as far as isolated attitude, once he's married, this particular issue changes - unless you aren't comfortable "assuming" that he'll be faithful, sn shouldn't be relevant beyond the standard "do you shake hands?" question (depends on your circle)

And I definitely agree with desde and abybelibi about thinking seriously about all the other issues that you may or may not see eye to eye on. There are enough other issues that come up in a marriage (division of chores, finances, diapers!, discipline style) that you need to be on the same page about the BIG stuff.

Good luck!

Well Guys,

Thank you all for the advice and providing a forum to discuss this. I have broken up with him and he did not take it well.

It is not enough that he is willing to be in a shomer negiah relationship because I am, in fact that makes his position all the more pathetic- it proves that he has the self-control but not the motivation.

I further feel that any area in which someone puts roots down and says- this is how I am and accepts their weakness and deviant behavior without a plan to change is unacceptable to me in terms of a life partner. I can understand his position as a friend, but would never respect him as a life long partner.

Furthermore, a grab-bag mentality in terms of halacha is not OK in any area in terms of the home I want to have. I would want someone who would encourage me to grow even when its hard and frustraiting, not someone who says- ehh, its only a dirabanon or if this is too much for you than take it easy.

I am so glad that we are all talking about this- you have no idea how much I appreciate the ability to share the complexity of the situation with you all.

Please continue to respond with any thoughts or advice- I have a feeling this is not the end of the issue for me and hope to soon have the time and strength to share some of the detailed halachic debates that came up between the two of us.

That's the one advantage to a shidduch that doesn't end in marriage - you have a clearer idea of what you DO want, based on how this person matches up to what you thought you wanted, and the soul searching you do while deciding.

May this bring you to your bashert quickly!

Laura - it sounds like you probably made the right decision breaking up with him (said without knowing either of you). but I'm concerned about one thing you said: "It is not enough that he is willing to be in a shomer negiah relationship because I am, in fact that makes his position all the more pathetic- it proves that he has the self-control but not the motivation." A guy who would push you to not be shomer negiah with him because he doesn't have that "self-control" does not respect you and is a creep you should run from. On the other hand, this guy sounds like a nice guy, who respected your beliefs, but just happens to have different ones from you.

Laura, I have to agree with AbyBelibi on your usage of the word "pathetic." It is not pathetic, but it is very telling about his relationship to G-d and to mitzvos. For whatever reason, this particular mitzvah doesn't resonate with him, and he feels no complusion to voluntarily submit to it. (This is a function of living in golus, unfortunately.) It sounds like you were worlds apart philosophically... so obviously he is not the right person for you.

Hatzlacha on finding your true bashert.

Laura, from what I understand, all guys struggle with their hormones until they can get married and have an acceptable outlet for them. It has got to be incredibly frustrating to be SN and to be careful with zera levatalah. So I can understand why the man you dated gave in. But it's still forbidden. And a guy who gives in to this desire too often is putting his head in the wrong place. Probably in the same place as every secular man's, but not the place where a religious man's head should be. When we do holy things and think holy thoughts, we become holy people. Your actions and thoughts create who you are. If a man you date indulges in negiah will have subconscious thoughts about it, will have zerah levatalah, and is generally not the holy-minded man you want to marry. Yes, all men struggle with this. But some guard themselves and so remain more pure. I think you did the right thing. Good luck, and may the right man come soon!

There are some folks, mostly but not entirely outside the Orthodox community (not not outside the shomrei mitzvot community) who don't see shmirat negiah as a mitzvah: the halakhic basis for it is somewhat shaky, from what I've learned, although I haven't made a full study of it. But what I've heard argued is that if one were to base sn on laws of niddah, one would also have to avoid sitting on the same couch as a woman in niddah, etc. So it is unclear where else the prohibition would come from. I'm told there's some evidence that it comes from a passage in Talmud, but the passage is aggada, and we don't usually posken from aggada.

So there are reasons that one would not hold my sn while otherwise being devoted to halakha.