T"H and Sexual Satisfaction
Modern Orthodox Woman recently posted a link to an article in Science and Technology News discussing a study on Orthodox women and sexual satisfaction. According to the article,
Orthodox Jewish women are very sexually active in their marriages, but fewer than 75 percent are emotionally and physically satisfied, according to the results of a survey released May 5 at the annual American Psychiatric Association meeting in New York. . . .The results were compared to a 1999 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which found that 93 percent of American women from various denominations were physically satisfied, and almost 90 percent reported a high level of emotional satisfaction.
The remainder of the article discusses the results of the study from the perspectives of two "experts:" an Israeli professor who clearly has an axe to grind against Orthodoxy and an American professor whose research focuses on newly Orthodox women, a group that inevitably stresses the positive aspects of observance when questioned. Not the most objective sources imaginable.
Another failing of the article (or, more likely, the study) is the absence of any discussion of the possible impact of children on the women's responses. Women who strictly observe T"H are more likely than members of the general population to have many children beginning early in their marriages, and other studies have shown that child-bearing and -rearing can have negative effects on marital satisfaction as well as libido. Moreover, strictly Orthodox women who do not have children are frequently struggling with fertility issues, which can also interfere with marital satisfaction and make sex stressful.
All the same, the discrepency is substantial, and it seems likely that the periods of separation mandated by T"H have something to do with it. I would imagine that periodic avoidance of non-sexual touching (also not mentioned in the article) results in lowered emotional satisfaction for some women. It is also possible that the abrupt transition from no touching at all to a sexual relationship intereferes with some women's ability to enjoy sex, since women often take longer to "warm up" for intercourse than men do.
This is all conjecture, of course, and since I don't practice these laws strictly, my conjectures may be less accurate than some of yours. So, what do you think? Is this a real problem? If so, what might the underlying causes be, and what, if anything, can be done about it?
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I find this study highly vague and definitely not a show of reality. i have observed T"H since the day of my wedding and am always emotionally satisfied..if i can't have the hug i want, my husband knows other ways to make me smile (like leaving a good night note on the sink where i brush my teeth as a surprise), etc...i, personally feel it is the women who feel that without physical satisfaction there is no emotional satisfaction that are a little confused in their thinking..they have come to see them as one and the same, whereas Judaism/T"H does not..
Beat me to it, Ruchama, ;-)
Here's my stab at it: I don't know how they measured satisfaction, but I certainly think the T"H life includes more frustration than the average sex life. More passion and excitement too, maybe, hopefully. But if they asked something like "how content are you with your sex life" as opposed to "how much do you enjoy sex with your spouse," they might have gotten two very different answers. And if this is all the study reveals, it's nothing we didn't already know. T"H by its nature involves ups and downs rather than a stable state of satisfaction.
But the other suggested interpretations of the results are more disturbing to me. I find it unfortunately too plausible that --although in theory, a wife's sexual pleasure is supposed to be very important in a Jewish marriage -- in reality women might be discouraged from spending the time and effort to figure out exactly what gives them that pleasure, on the grounds that it is somehow not tzniusdik. If that's true, it makes me very sad.
I once heard a lecture by a woman who was doing a sexual survey of Orthodox women. (I believe it was in Israel; her name escapes me at the moment.) According to her, the greatest challenge in doing such a study is that many religious women do not want to talk about sex in the open, so finding willing participants is difficult. Based on this, I would like to throw out the possibility that Orthodox women who are not satisfied sexually may be more willing to talk about it that women who aren't. I can think of a number of possibilities why this is so.
Based on my small sample of people whose sex lives I have some inkling of the 75% number seems quite high. Also, I have personally experienced TM to be beneficial sexually (emotionally is another story), in comparison to the times when we were not practicing it do breastfeeding for instance.
Clarification, please?
"almost 75% non satisfied", or "almost 75% satisfied"?
In comparison to 90+% satisfied, either would be statistically significant, but Avigayil's reading seems to be the first, which was my original interpretation.
sounds like both studies have issues of generalizability. and without knowing how they defined 'satisfied', we don't really know what they were measuring. plus reporting of studies can be biased as well. However, it does seem like a large minority of Orthodox women feel unsatisfied, and the question is why.
One thing the article said is "The women also feel pressure to have sex because it is their marital obligation". I know what a husband's sexual obligation is to his wife. What is the wife's obligation?
This discussion also reminded me of something I've been thinking about for months while reading mayim rabim. The women who write here have been extremely open about very personal issues. and I applaud all of you for that. but I know it's something I could never do, even under a pseudonym. I've been wondering how you all feel talking about such personal things. and also how your husbands feel about what you've written.
LC, the finding was that approx. 75% of Orthodox women were satisfied (as compared to approx. 90% of other women).
AB, I believe many of the women who speak candidly here are not only doing so for the sake of talking about our own issues - although that is worthwhile in of itself. We're also hoping we might help other women out there who have the same issues we do, but are unable to talk about it themselves. I think that gives us added courage.
My own husband is very supportive of this website, and if anything I write here helps someone else, he deserves a large share of the credit as well.
My husband definitely reads it (although more so when we were very new) so I do sometimes check my words, since I wouldn't want to inadvertantly embarrass him in any way, even under a pseudonym... but in a way T"H is something I've always wanted to discuss but couldn't, because it wouldn't be tzinusdik. And there are still areas where I censor myself. But I think it provides a very important resource.
There was one comment especially, from a Conservative woman, after Ruchama's post about Conservative viewpoint on T"H, where the commenter hadn't realized there was a Conservative viewpoint at all, and was planning on looking into taking on some form of T"H observance... would that ever happen without this site?
Reading the article again, I am more flabbergasted by the statistic that says that 93% of American women are satisfied, based on everything that you hear in the media about women's sex lives in this country. I glossed over the article too quickly at first and misread the stat, and while 25% is significant, it is not as bad as I thought it was.
In connection to what AB wrote, my husband is also really supportive, and as long as I am anonymous I don't mind sharing. Also, I draw the line at revealing intimate details about my husband, and the one or two times that I brought him up I asked his permission first. I can't imagine never being able to get certain things off my chest to other like-minded people, and I hope that by doing so it would encourage others who have the same need.
Somewhere along these lines, I want to elucidate my parenthetical comment about TM and emotional satisfaction. I did not mean to imply that I am not emotionally satisfied in my marriage, only that the periods of physical separation detract somewhat from my emotional satisfaction at that given time. I did not intend my comment as the survey had meant it.
also, orthodox is a very ambiguous term. Were the Israeli women largely chassidic? Are the Americans Modern Orthodox?
I very much doubt that this survey is a a random crosssection of orthodox women.
Hi, the conservative girl referred to above commenting :). I still read you guys.
I think there's no doubt about it that the article is a bit skewed, it's hard not to when dealing with small populations and then making large generalizations. But whatever percentages it comes up with the article does bring interesting issues up for discussion.
My question is, does the article specifically discuss the level of satisfaction with respect to t"h? Or it has just been brought up in this discussion? I think it's a good assumption that a large factor in an Orthodox woman's sex life is t"h, but what about tznius? I tend to intuitively (since I don't practice t"h) agree with eden, that t"h can can cause frustration in sex life but not necessarily reduce satisfaction. It seems to me that the lack of satisfaction might stem more from a woman (or man)not wanting to communicate about sex due to concerns of tznius. This is something that I have been curious about for a while (and obviously none of you have to respond to this if you feel like it violates your own tznius), where does the line of tznius lie between a couple? And on the same line of thought, how does a strictly tzniusdik upbringing effect your sexual satisfaction later in life? My husband went to a strictly orthodox school growing up, with a strict no sex discussion policy. And I personally feel like it has effected our sexual relationship. I hope no one is offended by the direction of this discussion. I will understand if this goes past anyone's boundaries.
Shoshana -
Interesting questions. As far as communication about sex, I would hazard to say that it ISN'T an issue of tznius between a man and wife. At the same time, I can definitely see how individuals who were used to not talking about "such things" might have a very hard time broaching the subject.
As an aside, I would suggest that while your husband's school would not discuss the issue, I am sure the boys did (among themselves). My husband has commented on such - he went to a religious, all boys school - much to my initial surprise.
Maybe the school policy was re-enforced by "don't ask, don't tell" at home? This is the part I find truly shocking. While I can understand frum parents wanting to limit the information their children get, I was shocked when a friend attended a group kallah class that had to explain the menstrual cycle. Once a girl is Bat Mitzvah, she is an adult in the eyes of the law, and in generations past, sometimes girls even got married at 14. At a minimum, what is wrong with teaching girls about their own bodies?!!!
The film we were shown in 6th grade (public school) only discussed female anatomy, NO mention of boys or sex, maybe a reference to "when you are ready to have a baby". Maybe. What do FFB parents/Orthodox girls schools have against this info?
Michal
I made a random comment in front of a frum teenager in reference to why identical twins have to be the same sex about "one egg." The girl looked lost and her mother about had a cow. I stopped and said, "do you know how babies are made?" She said no, her mother looked very upset (did she think I was about to give a lesson?) and I finished the conversation very quickly with, "Then just trust me, identical twins have to be the same sex." Her mother looked very relieved.
I knew all that when I was 9... but it certainly wasn't my place to tell her if her mother hadn't! She's married now, so she probably got that instruction. (At least, I hope so!) My oldest girl is 6, so I haven't thought about what I'll teach her, but what do these girls know about why they are bleeding every month? G-d's curse on Eve and that's it?
I don't know that story sounds a little extreme, although I do believe it occured. I grew up in an Orthodox home and we never discussed this in school/parents, and RARELY with friends, but from the VERY few times things were mentioned I had a pretty clear idea, maybe not as clear as secularists, but I was not completely "out of it" by the time i began menstruating...
With all that said, when I was six and watching tv with my parents, a lady was giving birth then the doc took the baby out and said "it's a boy/girl" (i forget which) and i looked at my father and said "how do they know it doesn't have enough hair yet??" well he quickly evaded the question....but trust me, i learned soon enough.
i wanted to weigh in on this a bit, because i think it's a deeply important topic for *all* women, not just those who are observant.
personally, i think teaching children/young adults about sexuality should be done from the get-go. again, i'm non-observant. but it seems to me that if this isn't done in communities/cultures without rules about such things, it would be more prevalent in yours. i don't find miriam's comment about the girl in the kallah class surprising at all. i'm surprised it doesn't happen more often...
a previous neighbor of mine, about 40 years old, was getting a hysterectomy; she asked me if she'd still get her period... the woman hadn't asked her doctor, nor had she been told (likely because the doctor figured she knew this basic fact).
what i'm saying is that a lot of girls don't know the "facts of life," regardless of where they come from. if non-jewish parents feel uncomfortable talking about sex, something i feel they're supposed to do, then it's no surprise that religious parents would have a hard time with this.
the question is (and it's one i've raised over at persephone's blog), is this an issue anyone wants to tackle in a larger way?
and ps: i grew up with any number of girls who weren't even told a thing about their period, not even about g'd's curse on eve as miriam mentioned before. they got their periods and were terrified and thought they were dying. (i, of course, got mine when my mother had the flu and my father had to go to the drug store to get me supplies...)
This article and stats seem like a joke. But, taking them at face value, remember this - American marriages where the partners are not completely satisfied have a high chance of becoming a divorce. So yeah, 93% of American married women are satisfied, becuase if they aren't its divorce. Perhaps more frum women stay married even at 75% satisfaction becuase there are other reasons to besides self gratification... e.g. the kids, the marriage etc
This entire subject is too vague for me to sink my teeth into.
Perhaps we need to define satisfaction; and what people want or need. Because it may vary from person to person.....perhaps even from place to place!
Do people want romance? Do they want to be wined and dined? Or do they want nights out, chocolates, weekends away? Or is a physical thing?
Well, I for one am planning to pay attention to physical signs (I think underarm hair is actually the best one, and something they might be willing to tell me about) and then make sure my girls know what to expect. Don't know *how* much of a biology lesson I'll be giving, but *something*! Then I'll take them shopping for distinctive flannel and terry to make their own cloth pads... so they won't get mixed up with mine. (I hate disposables too.)
I'm just thinking of when my sons get married and their wives try to make them go buy them pads... and my sons will say, "What are those? My mother and sisters never used those. I never saw them in the house!" And the wives will think we just hid them really well, lol.
We had a tsnius study content a few years ago, using the English sefer Oz Vehodor Levusaha by Rabbi Falk, and it was recommend for mothers with their daughter 8th grade and up.
It was the perfect time for my daughter to ask me whatever she wanted…or whatever came about as a result of the learning.
I think she knows more than most kallos now!
Well, obviously the study is skewed... they're comparing Orthodox women in NYC and Israel to American women stam. Maybe it's something in the tap water, and American women who live in suburbs and in the country are more satisfied than Orthodox women in NYC.
OKay, that was mostly tongue in cheek, but I still think it's a valid point. Living in the city is often more stressful (and more polluted) than living in the country, and might actually have a statistically significant effect on the findings.
Sorry I can't repspond to your other questions, Ruchama, since I consider myself satisfied on all counts, even within the constrains of T"H. Maybe that's a matter of perspective? If I need a hug but am unable to receive one from my husband, I don't "count it" against my overall emotional satisfaction from my marriage... but I personally see Hash-m's guidance as being very "hands-on" (everthing has a purpose and no such thing as coincidence, as opposed to G-d overseeing a general plan but letting the details slide) and not everyone agrees with me.