Til Death Do Us Part
I like to visit the Yoatzot website once or twice a week to read through the recently posted questions and answers. Today I came across this one regarding T"H and mourning, and read this bit about being in niddah when one partner is dying:
In the autobiography of Glueckel of Hameln (17th-18th c.), there is a moving account of her husband on his deathbed when she was in niddah. He tells her that they had observed the halacha all their married lives and shouldn't violate the harchakot now. They are united by their constant, unflagging mutual commitment to something beyond themselves, halacha.
Maybe our commitment to halacha isn't strong enough, because neither my husband nor I can imagine being in that situation and not holding each other's hands or exchanging a final soft kiss. It's not like we're going to jump each other, right? The harchakot are fences; why have the fence when the ikkar (main point) is basically non-existant?
Comments
Well, the fact that he felt the need to actually tell her that they shouldn't violate the harchakot at that moment meant they seriously considered it!
I'm kind of hoping my husband will never die, but that if and when he does, we'll both be very old and the niddah years far far behind us!
I see myself also keeping the harchakot in this case, but sharing some tender words and last "I love you"s... and I think that would be good enough, hard as it would be.
To be honest I find this interesting and never thought about it. I, however, can never imagine what I would do. While we do keep all the harchakos this does seem kind of hard. Well, at least I am with Desde in hoping that those years are far far behind us when the time comes.
i have to say (as the the non-practicing atheist who always poses the outrageous scenarios) that i'm really, really disturbed by the observance of harchakot at dire times, like this and during labor. aren't there some situations that superceded the laws? for example, can't you break sabbath to tend to an emergency? is keeping harchakot a higher, more important law?
i don't mean any disrespect, please know this. i'm fascinated by this site and have learned so much about judaism, even though i choose not to practice it. (ok, i light yorkzeit candles, so i guess i'm not completely unobservent.)
these particular instances seem so severe. i can't imagine not holding my husband one last time, i can't imagine him not physically comforting me when i was giving birth. for me, that physical comfort is paramount in my life; i need it, both emotionally and physically, when times are bad. (which is perhaps what i'm not understanding, that all of you have other ways of dealing with situations like these that are just as fulfilling without the need for touching).
what is the worst thing that will happen if you break these laws? if, let's say, your husband is dying and you make love even if yo'ure niddah to be close to him one last time?
Grumpygirl, I'm a little disturbed by the way you phrased that... I'm sure you didn't mean to say that labor is included in "when times are bad!"
Anyway, I think a big part of it is that we do learn to express our love and affection without always having physical contact... and that's a good thing. As a side note, being touched while in labor isn't always comforting, no matter who's doing the touching!
Yes, you can break the Sabbath (actually, you are obligated to) to save a life... and guess what, if you're in labor and it happens so fast that you're still at home when it's time to push, your husband can darn well catch that baby! And touch you for whatever medical purposes are necessary... but he still couldn't give you a hug or a kiss, as ridiculous as that may sound.
It's not that it's a higher, more important law, just that breaking it doesn't serve a higher, more important purpose, and if it does, (like saving a life) than that law too is pushed aside.
Personally, I derive comfort from my husband's presence during my labors... I'd kill him if he wasn't there (well, not literally kill him) by my side, but touching me at that point wouldn't be a comfort, it would be a distraction.
The worst thing that will happen if you make love while niddah just before your husband dies? To you, for the moment, nothing. For your husband, about to come before the heavenly court and answer for all his sins? I don't know, I'm not a prophet. But do you want that on your conscience?
(incidentally, what Michaela was referring to, a kiss before he dies, is way different from making love. Making love with a niddah is the actual Biblical offense. Not kissing is a "fence," to keep you from inadvertantly trangressing the Biblical law.)
what Michaela was referring to, a kiss before he dies, is way different from making love. Making love with a niddah is the actual Biblical offense. Not kissing is a "fence," to keep you from inadvertantly trangressing the Biblical lawYes, Desde, that's a very important point. The other idea (making love one last time, knowing one of you has only a few days to live) is romantic but also a much more serious issue, halachicly speaking. What I had in mind was more like holding your partner's hand in his last days in the hospital, or cradling him immediately after he sustains a life-threatening injury (struck by a car, for example). These are morbid thoughts, but it's important to consider them. The only thing worse, in my mind, than not being able to touch my husband in such a situation would be having one of us want to, the other not, and spending those last few minutes, hours, or days fighting about it.
I guess ultimately it would be up to the individual couple in the situation... and even deeper... the person who is dying.
Everyone has their own way of keeping the harchakot and in this situation it would be no different.
If the person dying is saying "hold my hand" and there is no biblical law against it, then it is a request that should be considered. But if it is important to the person who is dying, not to be touched due to harchakot, then you should honor that person and not do what you might want to at that moment (if you want to hold them). They might want to die knowing they kept the harchakot their whole life.
desde, sorry about that. i never meant to imply that labor was dire (well, if i were in labor it would be dire, but i'm overly dramatic with a terribly low threshold for pain...)
i guess what i'm trying to understand is how the strong belief in keeping these holy laws differs from what happens when you're faced with a real-life at-the-moment situation.
growing up without these laws in my life has led me down different paths, and therefore has me count on different things from the people in my life. i can't imagine following harchakot, as i said, because touch has such a pivotal place in my life.
that said, those of you who do practice come to it from a different place and perspective. obviously, over time, it becomes second nature. the comfort you find in it is not unlike, i suppose, the comfort i find in what i live with. for me, sharing intimacy with the man i love is part of my life, and something that i count on especially in hard times. i never would have gotten through several really difficult times--the death of my father, severe depression, etc--had i not had someone else to help me ease that pain. but, my need for that is as strong as your need to follow your laws.
our belief systems are different, and now that i understand harchakot a little better i think i'm seeing that it's not so much a choice. it's what you do, what you follow, and it becomes intrinsic.
or, i could be completely wrong about all of it. i know only what works for me and since i'm answering only to myself i have to live with my choices. etc. and so on.
i just reread what i posted, above, and i would hate for anyone to think for a SECOND that i am comparing the importance of my own wanton sex life with the importance of harchakot. i'm sorry if it comes across that way.
You know, Grumpygirl, I don't think we're all that different from you - I don't know anyone who finds taharat hamishpacha easy no matter how long they observe it. I think even if we fall into a groove after a while, get used to the rhythm, there are always times in our lives when it's a serious challenge. If you find someone who says she has a great connection with her husband even when they can't touch, that's because both of them put a lot of effort into it. We do this because of belief, not habit.
Going back to your earlier question - you might want to bear in mind that there aren't many situations where you'd actually be able to make love to a dying spouse. If he's deathly ill, he's almost certainly not healthy enough for that kind of exertion. It might come up if he was about to be executed, or something, but that seems like the kind of situation that mainly happens on soap operas.
On the flip side I always think about how much holding or kissing a dying loved one might save their life. If my husband was bleeding out in the ambulance, or in a coma, or anything where I had the slightest inkling that my touch might keep him hanging on a little longer, I wouldn't hesitate. And I wouldn't ask my rabbi, either. How does he know for sure any more than I do?
eden, i appreciate your kindness. i think my scenario, as always, falls into my typical outrageous scenarios i always ask about. there is a reason i'm tired all the time...
two ps's:
1: even though all of you are deeply observent, does this ever make you ache because you need comfort from your spouse? or do you funnel that need into your religious beliefs?
2: i truly hope i don't offend or become a giant pain. please let me know if you want me to stop my questions and stop posting. know that as an atheist who was raised reform i am fascinated by your lives; i have learned so much about the lives of the women in my family many generations ago. i'm not here because i want to start following, and i feel i should make that clear. i've always been very comfortable with my non-observance, and just want to learn about the lives of those who do. but please, please, if i am making you crazy or nauseated i will explore my curiousity elsewhere. --alyssa (aka the grumpygirl)
grumpygirl - Obviously I can't speak for the individual contributors, but as for myself (as webmaster), I say you and your questions are welcome here. As long as you remain receptive to the responses and challenges from contributors and other readers (which you have!) I can think of no reason why you shouldn't feel just as comfortable reading and commenting as anyone else.
grumpygirl - I think I can speak for a few people when I say that we are all not DEAPLY observant as you described above.
The beauty of Judaism is that it welcomes differences in opinion and questioning. One thing that all religious Jews share, however, is a love of Hashem and a commitment to follow the Torah. We all strive to follow the Torah, but we all approach it in our own way... and in some that reflects how they keep the harchakot.
Internalizing Judaism is one of the most wonderful things that a Jew can do, and it shows through each person by the way they honor Hashem. Hashem loves every Jew regardless of their differences or the way they keep the harchakot.
shifra,
thank you for being so welcoming as well as explaining things in such a beautiful manner.
q: you say, "Hashem loves every Jew regardless of their differences or the way they keep the harchakot." it was my understanding that either the hassidim or lubavitch don't accept as jews those of us who are not one of their own. again, this is only what i have heard.
grumpygirl -
For sure NOT Lubavitch. They are one of the Jewish groups most actively working to convince Jews to observe the laws of the Torah - there are Chabad houses all over the world - and they absolutely welcome every Jew.
There may be certain stringencies followed by any orthdox Jew when dealing with the non-observant, and some cloistered groups may be extremely insular, but I have never heard of ANY group denying the Jewish heritage of someone non-observant.
(Reform's acceptance of patrilineal descent is another story, which sometimes causes issues.)
RE: aching from wanting comfort from your spouse:
I'm sure there have been times, but none so poignant or memorable as an instance in HS where I was having a deep, meaningful conversation about conflicts with my family over differing levels of observance with a male NCSY (orthodox youth group) advisor - who at the end told me to go find a female friend and get a hug.
On the one hand, I appreciated his understanding that THAT was what I really needed, but I wasn't willing to deal with explaining to someone else right then what was going on. I wanted the hug to go with the conversation, and let it be out of my system (for the time being) before I had to interact with anyone else. It didn't help that I was not fully observant then and would have accepted a hug from him if it had been offered.
So related issues arise outside of marriage; there are yichud (being alone together) and negiah (touching) laws that address any male-female interaction. Including a rabbi counseling a female congregant.
So in the larger context, it isn't as "awful" as you might imagine; once you're on the inside, there's an acknowledgement on both sides of the framework (i.e. Torah) that eases the hurt even when situations arise; it obviously isn't a personal insult.
Maybe you could think of it like having your best friend on the other end of the phone; there are ways of providing comfort without physical interaction. Maybe not AS satisfying, but the feeling gets expressed anyway.
i think what i'm learning here, what all of you are so generously explaining to me, is that t'h is more than just a religious observance, it's also a learned behavior of sorts. (as always, correct me if i am wrong.)
ergo, you have been raised and taught with this as your way of living. sometimes it tests you, but you deeply believe in it's religious and personal value.
i was raised and taught (or not really taught, but learned from my own behavior) that physical contact and intimacy were paramount to my happiness and healthiness. ergo, that is how i live.
i can tell you, however, that the act of immersing in water is also a huge part of my life: when i am mad or deeply stressed, getting ready for a romantic evening, taking a break from work on a hectic day, i slide into a warm tub. for stress anger, or craziness i can lie there and introspect, calm down, cleanse away the day. when i'm done i can finish my day with new energy. when i'm using the bath as a "preparation" for romance, it's also a time for me to focus solely on me, anticipate an evening ahead, etc. (this is not to say my taking a bubble bath is like t'h, only that i, too, use water as a segue.)
Well, "raised and taught" is a bit strong... even if you grow up Orthodox, what you're raised with and taught is not touching unrelated people of the opposite sex... so yes, you don't expect and need intimate touch from strangers or casual acquaintances... but your husband isn't a casual acquaintance, and hugs and such from parent to child don't follow any sort of on-again off-again pattern, so it kind of all hits you when you get married.
The underlying key is the importance we place on doing what we feel (or have been taught) that G-d wants from us. Since the halacha comes from the Being Who Created And Runs The Universe, it takes on an intrinsic importance. The Rabbis of the Mishna and Gemorah were authorized to add "fences," and we've agreed to follow those too, whatever they may be. (Not that we don't complain, just that "we," ie the strictly observant, still accept it as something we "have" to do.)
When you have to live within this framework, you find ways to make it work. Baruch Hash-m most of us can see some actual benefit to our relationships as well, but that's not the point.
Yes, it's a learned behavior, and we learn ways of relating that don't involve touch... and ways of relating that do, and we can compartmentalize them, and can see not being able to touch (or not wanting to be touched right now) as something other than a personal rejection. But it doesn't come easy, and it does take a lot of effort, practice, and most of all, a commitment to see it through.
Beautifully said, Desde; that's exactly what I was trying to express.
i second what eden said.
i admire your strength of faith and conviction.
Wonderful Desde! You hit the nail on the head.
Grumpygirl: Just to note, I did not grow up Orthodox, and did not grow up respecting private space of the opposite sex, so I too grew up believing "physical contact and intimacy were paramount to my happiness and healthiness." Did this make the transition harder for me? Yes, but it has also opened my eyes to a whole new world of wonderful.
Weaning yourself off of physical dependencies gives you a better self worth and makes you a stronger person. I'm depressed less often because I don't feel totally vacant if I don't get a hug from my husband or friend (even a girlfriend that I could hug at any time). I'm no longer running from relationship to relationship confusing physical intimacy for love. I am very secure in knowing that the people who care for me truly DO care for me whether I am touching them or not.
Not to mention the fact that the practice of taharat hamishpacha and the Orthodox views on touching in general has made every since touch more special, exactly the way that Hashem intended touch to be. I am floating in the clouds when I am holding my husband's hand, and that's something I couldn't say I felt with any of my other relationships.
I respect your views and your feelings that you need physical touch in your life because that's how you were raised, but I'm here to say that no matter how you are raised... even the slightest touch deserves to be magical and that is what taharat hamishpacha gives us!
This exact issue has always really bothered me. I would probably still keep the harchakot, though.