And Where Are YOU From?

Posted by Michaela at 09:42 AM on July 14, 2005

I'll save my thoughts on the whole not-looking-at-toilet-paper thing for another time, but for now I want to comment briefly on this question and answer from the Yoatzot site:

If you are ashkenazi, and wiped yourself immediately after urinating, you are considered niddah - unless you have a cut or sore in the area that may have been opened or scratched as a result of relations. If you are sephardi, then you are tehorah even if you wiped immediately.

Does that strike anyone else as utterly absurd? I mean, I understand that there are differences between Ashkenazim (loosely, Jews of Eastern European and German origin) and Sefardim (loosely, Jews of Spainish, Moroccan, or Middle Eastern origin) when it comes to stuff like harchakot, chatzitzot, number of dunks, etc. But something so weighty as whether a woman is or is not niddah?? Not even, "If you are X you are niddah and if you are Y you need to ask a more specific question." Same circumstances, polar opposite halachic outcome.

I know there are situations like this in other areas of halacha (such as women saying brachot on certain mitzvot), but it still seems so jarring to me, almost wrong. We Jews are already divided along so many other lines - denominational, political, philosophical. Must we still cling to a divison based not even on our present geographical location, but merely on the homes of our husbands' fathers' fathers?

Comments

On July 14, 2005 at 02:53 PM, kuzo said:

I thought this was because Ashkenazi & Sefardi uteri, vaginas and vulvas were so totally structurally different from each other (wink)...

On July 15, 2005 at 04:34 PM, eden said:

hee hee hee hee

On July 18, 2005 at 06:09 PM, Shani said:

Odd. My (very Orthodox, Ashkenazi) rabbi told me indiscriminately (i.e. applies to both Sefardim and Ashkenazim), that I (1) can look at the toilet paper and (2)even see blood on it and (3) am not niddah for having done so.
With all due respect to the wonderful service Yoatzot has been doing for women, I strongly recommend that women still consult with their own rabbi when it comes to issues that pertain to minhagim and the like.

On July 18, 2005 at 11:30 PM, persephone said:

Well, when you ask the Yoatzot, you are essentially asking for the psak of the rabbi (or rabbis) who trained them... I think readers might have a tendency to think the answers posted on the website are across-the-board answers, in reality, they can't be. I don't think there is such a thing.

Even among Ashkenazi rabbis only, there are different opinions about whether a stain on toilet paper counts. I have heard: no, never; no, as long as you waited 15 seconds before wiping; no, as long as you didn't wipe more deeply than usual...

On July 19, 2005 at 07:23 AM, VasserVeibel said:

I don't know about you, but what if I have both sephardi and ashkenazi heritage but keep chassidic (ashkenazi) customs? Has my uterus become tragically confused? ;) lol

Perse - I just want to through in that every TH class I have taken and every rabbi has told me that blood on toilet paper is an "issue" and must be brought to the Rov. So you see across the board, everyone will get a different answer. It depends on hashgofa, community standards and the Rov you use.

On July 19, 2005 at 10:14 AM, Avigayil said:

The crux of the issue is whether or not toilet paper is considered an item that is mekabel tumah (can become ritually impure). Toilet paper was generally not considered to be mekabel tumah since it wasn't very substantial. Those who argue today that toilet paper is problematic are basing it on the evolution of toilet paper- since it is of a higher quality it may be mekabel tumah and one should therefore be careful. My psak was that toilet paper is never really a problem but that I should not look l'chatchila. Solution for everyone? Use colored toilet paper.

On July 19, 2005 at 12:08 PM, persephone said:

Thanks, Vasser - I thought I remembered an Ashkenazic opinion that said yes it's always a problem, but I couldn't remember for sure.

Colored paper solves the biggest issue, but not all of them... those who say it depends on how deeply you wipe are worried that it might be equivalent to doing a bedikah; those who recommend waiting 15 seconds before wiping are worried that urinating might have masked hargasha (an internal sensation of uterine flow). When you've had hargasha, the leniencies for a stain do not apply, so even if it was on colored material you could still have a problem. The Yoatzot apparently follow this opinion, because they recommend using colored paper AND waiting.

On July 19, 2005 at 02:31 PM, Michal said:

I have also heard that since there isn't really any way of telling whether the sensation of urinating is preventing someone from noticing the sensation of hargasha (at the same moment), colored TP would still be an issue.

On the one hand, grrr! (we follow this Rav's opinion) On the other hand, I know someone with sensitive skin who gets a nasty rash from the coloring in TP, so maybe I'd rather not try.

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