Mayim Rabim

I was taught the two bedikot are ideally supposed to be within the onah, one at the beginning, one at the end. But there's some flexibility with the timing. If it's a daytime onah: one bedikah when you wake up, one in the last couple of hours before sunset. But if you forgot the last one (or both, for that matter), you can still do one after dark before you go back to having relations. If it's a nighttime onah: one after dark, and then the next one can be after you wake up the next morning.

Also, you probably know this, Desde, but I was taught that if you're keeping onot that run into each other - e.g. in your case, Day 30 both day & night, and Day 31 both day & night - it's treated like one long onat prishah. So you only have to do 2 bedikot for the whole thing: one at the beginning of Day 30 and one at the end of Day 31.

As for what the point is, I guess it depends on what your cycle is like? Mine is variable but usually longer than 29 days. So for me, even though I know I probably won't get my period on the onah itself, the arrival of the first onah is usually a sign that my period could come at any time now, and I should probably start being more careful. And I often start spotting a day or two before my period, so I do end up going into niddah thanks to the bedikahs a good portion of the time.

For many people I think it's more like a gesture - this is as arbitrary a way of guessing as any, but at least we tried...

Mine was 27 to 35 days before I was married, although it averaged out to 29.5 days (yes, almost always switched from day to night or vice versa) and anywhere from that 29.5 to up to 45 days after marriage and that first pregnancy (gotta love nursing hormones.)

I guess I hear you on the being more careful after the onah thing, except with an up-to 45 day cycle, we might have two more weeks, and I spend the whole time paranoid about starting my period. Which is probably good... it means I'll be aware of it when it does start.

It's determining the intervals that drives me crazy... do you count from that initial spotting or from the actual start of a real flow? Or both? That's when the Lubavitch way of counting would be easier. They count "clean" onahs (half days) from the hefsek taharah until first spotting instead of the interval from flow to flow.

Lubavitch minhag for the interval still doesn't address your issue of spotting vs. flow, just the issue of do you count from the beginning of the last cycle, or the end (i.e.,hefsek tahara).

And I *believe* it's whatever point you become a niddah. Which would be spotting that turns into a flow if you see it on a bedikah cloth (e.g., after an onah), but only an actual flow otherwise. . . I remember asking a Rav giving a T"M "refresher" shiur if there was a halachic measurement for the size of a stain that counted as a flow and therefore made one niddah, even on a colored garment. : - )

And did he answer you? Or are you just supposed to "know"?

I was taught that no matter how big the stain is on a colored garment it does not make you a niddah (all though if it's huge then you can guess to yourself that you might have started your cycle). If it is on a white garment then it is only if it is larger than a gris (either a penny or a nickel size, I can't remember which and I don't have my book with me).

However, I also remember learning that you don't wear white garments or use white sheets during the onot. Only on the "clean" days. Is that right or am I remembering wrong?

I definitely have been doing the white underwear thing for onot since I was married... do I not have to? But I don't use a white sheet even for "clean" days, just make sure I'm wearing that underwear.

Any stain that gets past my underwear without staining it to my nightgown (which also isn't white... yeah, right, find a not-see-through long sleeved white nightgown!) and/or to my sheets came from some other part of my body and doesn't count!

And I did see a yoetzet question about how, no, you can't just wear colored underwear and ignore an actual "flow..." if it gets to that point (and if it does, it's probably getting past your underwear and staining your outer garments too, in which case you know better!) then tough, you are niddah, colored underwear or white underwear not-withstanding.

You should know that all non-white underpants aren't created equal.

I found this out during pregnancy; I had underpants purchased for me by the head of Hachnoses Kalla, and presumably she knew better...but she got me light pink, light blue, light green.

So - the story is, I stained a little...we showed the Rov..and I had the thrill of not only being nidda, with a big tummy, I got to buy Black underpants!

It depends on the posek, but I depend on it to this day - black or white. (Hey, or very dark navy, or very dark red............)

Thank you, Victoria's Secret, for making this FUN!

I'm discovering that while I love my kallah teacher, I don't think she was so strict on some t'h-related things. We discussed onah, but not so thoroughly. Fortunately, I'm pretty regular, and when I expect my period, my husband and I avoid "relations" and I usually get my period when expected. I didn't know I was supposed to do a bedikah during onah, but I guess it didn't matter since I'm so regular. But since we started IVF, the hormones have wreaked havoc with my cycle, and there was a long time between my cycles this time.

I guess I'm going to have to study up on onah and counting and remembering to do bedikot.

*sigh* every time I think I've got this stuff down...!

Desde, about when to start counting the interval, I'd suggest you ask your rabbi! I have asked several rabbis over the years, depending on whom we were able to get hold of, and I've heard two different things:

(1) If you became a niddah because it was your onah and there was a spot on your bedikah, you still wouldn't count Day 1 until the real flow starts. Spotting does not count until the point where you would put on a pad.

(2) If you usually start your period by spotting, and then within a day of the spotting, the flow starts, you count Day 1 from whenever the spotting reaches the size of a gris. Even if it was on colored, not white.

I don't know if these opinions go together (i.e., if it depends on whether you always spot before your period or not) or if they're opposed to each other. I think it would be best to find out what your own rabbi says.

And then of course, come and tell us. ;-)

I also wanted to chime in with the others and say I've never heard that you have to wear white underwear during an onah, only during shiva neki'im... maybe it's a custom in your community?

I think the number of bedikos is either 15 or 16....it has something to do with the gematria of Shem Hashem.

FWIW, I'm also not so on top of the onot, but I am resolving to look into it and take it more seriously. I was basically pregnant for two years straight and have not really recovered hilchot niddah-wise. One thing I know for sure is that I do not have the custom to wear white during onot, and also that the Or Zaruah minhag has nothing to do with regularity or irregularity, but rather it is a chumrah (or I guess simply a matter of who your posek is.) Desde, I'm a little confused as to why your irregular cycles would require you to keep this chumrah.

Sara, I have never heard of anything but white being problematic, and the halacha in this area seems pretty straightforward. The takanah about white was made once the mesorah to distinguish between various shades of red was lost (some reds would not make you a niddah). Since halacha was forced into the position that all reds are make you a niddah, stipulations were made, such as being on white and being the size of a gris. The point it is that you should not be deemed a niddah so easily, and that if the stain is not on white the Rav cannot get such a good sense of the color so he can't say it's niddah. I once wanted to wear ivory underwear during shiva nekiim and was told I could not since it isn't called "white". It could be that your rabbi was being very machmir, but I am really very curious as to his reasoning since it is strange to me. In fact, some rabbis advise not to wear only black since sometimes you may have a staining issue that would not be a niddah problem if you are wearing colored, but is a medical issue that may be missed if you wear black.

Re: why irregular cycles led to keeping this chumrah. I think the conversation with my kallah teacher went something like this: "But if you know that, for example, you always get your period during the day, then keeping only the day onah (except for the 30/31 full day thing) is plenty good enough." But I don't.

The specific irregularity I was referring to was that I couldn't guarrantee whether it would be night or day based on when the last one was... it often but not always would switch from one month to the next. So she suggested keeping the Or Zarua's onah as a safeguard. She practically made it sound like I had to, based on my circumstances.

For what it's worth, it wasn't until I'd been doing it a while that I found out that the 31st day thing is also a chumrah!

On the other hand, she made it very clear that the moch dachok was a minhag, and so if I wasn't able to make my hefsek at shkiah and was relying on a lunchtime one, and then when it was just too uncomfortable to even walk with it in and I had kids to deal with, I felt able to just skip it. Wish she'd told me about extra-soft bedikah cloths, though!

Am I really the only one who does white underwear for an onah? I shall have to check into that.

I read something about that in Rabbi Binyomen Furst's book, the green one.

That if you contined to wear black or navy you wouldn't notice red.

I showed it to my mashpia - who also teaches kallahs - and she said she never heard that, that you don't hve to do that.

Do you want me to look up the page for you, I have both volumes of it at home.

Desde, thanks for clearing up. I guess in your case keeping that chumrah makes you feel most comfortable, and that is as good a reason to keep a chumrah as any. As a general rule though, I don't think you need to be able to predict certainly whether you will get your period at night or during the day-- the consistancy comes from always relying on your last one. Keeping the extra onah seems to be a matter of personal sensitivity.

Sara, I didn't mean to imply that not wearing black was halachically invalid, just that putting yourself in a situation that you would never notice midcycle spotting isn't the best idea. I did a little research, and apparently there is a minority opinion that says since underwear is very close to the body even a stain on colored may make you a niddah. I guess your rabbi follows this opinion and therefore wearing underwear where you will never see a stain is a good solution. Thanks for sharing though. Since this opinion is not generally followed, I never would have known about it without you.

Just tryin' to help out!

Desde -

(see july 20) yeah, he answered me, but it's been a while, . . . my recollection was that he said bigger than a quarter and leaking through.

Well, gee, at that point I'd say it's pretty obvious. . . comes out the same as "you'll just know".