Being a Not-So-Frum Niddah
The following appears in a draft of a responsum by Conservative Rabbi Susan Grossman:
We live in a society that, while sensitized to sexual harassment and abuse, also treats touching between sexes very causally. . . Therefore some physical contact can continue between partners during the woman's menstruation as long as it is limited to that which is generally accepted in society between siblings.
Under these guidelines, partners should not sleep in the same bed unless clothed and should exercise modesty in undressing and dressing in front of each other during this time period. Newlyweds. . . must be particularly careful not to be drawn into physical intimacy which we might colloquially describe as necking or heavy petting.
I am inclined to take these guidelines seriously, as they appear in a responsum that I otherwise consider quite lenient. On the other hand, it is evident that the details are based on practicality rather than halacha, so it seems only reasonable for me to take my own sensibilities into account.
Here's the thing: I come from a family that's big on physical affection and not so big on clothing. My parents and sisters and I hug and kiss and cuddle all the time, and it comes naturally to me to behave the same way with my husband, without giving possible sexual implications a second thought. I wouldn't say that my interactions with my husband while niddah are just like my interactions with my mother and sisters (or, certainly, my father), but they seem a natural extension of what I consider casual, non-necessarily-sexual physical affection.
As for clothing, this may strike some of you as exceedingly odd (to put it mildly), but everyone in my nuclear family walks around the house in their underwear most of the time. Growing up, the first thing I typically did after walking through the door was take off my shoes, skirt and stockings or slacks, and when applicable, bra. Granted, as I grew older, I became more inclined to change into an oversized t-shirt, whereas with my husband I often wear no more than a tank top and shorts. Still, I think, the principle of "natural extension" applies. I've grown used to wearing very little clothing and developed extremely low tolerance for restrictive garments (particularly bras). Removing them when I get home doesn't seem like innuendo. And, after walking around with so little on, finding a private place to change, or going to bed fully clothed, just seems silly.
On several occasions, I've asked my husband how he feels about all this. His usual response is that he's happy with the physical affection and doesn't much care how I dress. Since neither seems to result in uncontrollable temptation for either of us, I'm not particularly inclined to change my habits.
But then I come back to this responsum, and I think, out of respect for the mitsvah, shouldn't I make something of an effort? Buy a big ugly house dress like my bubbie's, maybe? Learn to keep my hands to myself? I mull over these questions every month, but I never make up my mind to change. It just doesn't seem worth it.
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Unfortunately, it is not online. I received a copy from someone who knew R. Grossman.
Ruchama, I don't think your practice is all that far from what the responsum recommends. Although it seems to prescribe more distance than this, it also sounds as though, perhaps, the bottom line is "not to be drawn into necking or heavy petting." I would think that means not simply affectionate cuddling, but the sort of contact that is (or is intended to be) arousing. Also, why does "clothed" have to mean "fully clothed"? I certainly don't believe it means an ugly house dress! Hee hee.
In truth this is not so far from what my husband and I have always done on an onah. We do not have intercourse, but we don't refrain from the kind of physical affection which does not feel sexual to us. Example: we kiss on the cheek, but not on the lips. We cuddle sitting up, but we don't lie down and spoon. These are subjective boundaries, of course, I'm not suggesting they would be the same for every couple, only that chances are there's a line where you can feel the difference.
And I don't wear a tank top to bed that night, but that's mainly because my husband tends to take notice when I'm showing more skin than usual. I do wear shorts - I wear those all the time. If he were more desensitized to seeing me in a tank top, I might possibly think that was fine too.
I think the key word here is Sensitive. Yes, there are dinim….and then there are Norms. Societal as well as personal. And the tsnius rules are or can be different for what you can wear at home, as compared to what you must (or mustn’t) wear in public. With valid reasons why.
Let me tell you a story – an overnight camp was run for non religious teenagers. The kids ate Kosher in this setting. Over the summer, they had trips, and one such trip was a trip to go bowling. They went, and when they came back, they reported that the people there were “so loud, so rude, and so mean”. The rabbi laughed, because their eating Kosher – while Jewish law – had refined them ad made them sensitive to other people’s behavior.
Obviously we keep Kosher because it’s a Jewish law, not just to make us sensitive. And obviously we keep T.M. because it’s a law, and not just to make us sensitive to intimacy. I don’t know if we can call sensitivity a fringe benefit; maybe that’s one of the reasons that these laws were ordained.
I find a comfort level in changing my practices when I'm niddah. For example, if I wore a tank top and shorts around the house most of the time, when I'm niddah, I would wear yoga-style pants and short sleeves. Just something to make the distinction and remind me and my husband that something's different.
I believe that's what most of the laws are about - making sure we remember that this time is different. If you need bubie's ugly house dress to remind you, then go for it! ;)
This was interesting; after mistakenly believing that the Conservative movement has no interest in t'h, I'm intrigued to read a Conservative responsum that includes a mention of sleeping separately and restraining from sexual contact.
I don’t know the standards of the woman who wrote the original piece, but perhaps she did not want to entice her husband while she had her period. I respect that. I mean, it’s not how we do things, but it IS respectful on its own level.
sara - "We" is a very broad term, and there are a variety of perspectives and practices represented on Mayim Rabim. Perhaps you could more clearly identify who you mean by "we," or else limit such statements to talking only about yourself and your own practices.
I wonder why you don't think that it would be "worth it"?
Isn't everyone here Jewish & keeping T.M., at least on some level? That's who I meant by "we".
Sara -
For starters, not necessarily, anyone might find their way to the blog.
Furthermore, the "original piece", as you call it is clearly stated to be a draft of a psak from a Conservative Rabbi. I believe there is at least one Conservative "blogger" on here, besides however many posters.
It may not be how you (or I) "do things", but any of the Conservative among us may follow this Rabbi's psak. Your "at least on some level" response to Shanna is the key.
Thank you, Michal. Also, sara (and everyone else), there are a few commenters, and probably many more readers, who do not keep T"H at all, and may never decide to do so. Mayim Rabim is intended to be welcoming to everyone.
Okay, point well taken, so I take back my statement! Do you want to delete that post, then?
I recently came back from a month-long study program run by one of the Camp Ramahs (the camping branch of the Conservative Movement) in which we had the opportunity to learn from and speak with a fairly large number (at least to meet in one month) of Conservative rabbis, including several poskim for the movement. I asked a few of them about t"h issues and the movement, and they expressed a fairly wide range of views, ranging both to the left and the right of this issue. But it is an issue being thought about and dealt with in the Conservative rabbinic community, and I'm hoping that CJLS will start working with it more openly in the near future. This post gives me hope that it's on the table to be addressed. Thank you for sharing it.
Yup, me too. Good to hear it's being discussed. And I always am interested in what's being said by the Conservative Rabbis. Keep the info and developments coming.
Ruchama, I also appreciate all of the personal deliberations that you post, I can really relate to them.
I'm more than half tempted to start calling my own connections to see if I can get a copy of that responsum -- there isn't nearly enough commentary on T"H that falls simultaneously under the headings of "liberal" and "halakhic." And in my community at least there's a considerable hunger for such opinions.
On the larger question... hmmmm. You know, this would be a much easier decision if I normally wore anything to bed.
So I showed this post to my husband after writing it, and asked whether this was a silly thing to worry about, and he said, "yes." This made it a bit difficult to respond to your comments right away. I do appreciate them, though.
frombeneath: I can definitely relate to your comment. The thing is, I don't own yoga-type pants (which might be comfortable in warm weather), and most of my "t-shirts" are my husband's old undershirts, which are completely transparent without a bra. (Also, some are more hole than t-shirt.) So it would actually take some effort (i.e. going to a store) to change the way I dressed during niddah, and that's hard to do with zero encouragement from hubby. I can't help thinking, why bother?
Dulcie: If you have any success with the string-pulling, please let me know. My copy is a draft and is missing the footnotes, which is quite irritating.
I guess if you want to change your "comfy-clothes" or "nightwear" style on a budget, you'd have to think thrift shop or ebay, unless you live near a discount department store, or want to hit Sears or some such.
I wear robes mainly, and I have tons, for all seasons - but they weren't necessarily cheap or gorgeous.
How about older everyday clothes - sweatshirt/tee shirt, and denim skirt, for when you get home, or in the evening?
Or how about a long, one size fits all tee shirt? You can sleep in it OR wear it around the house. Shirts are touristy type items that are easy to buy and maybe you'll get a gift from your husband or kids; chances are they'll really enjoy getting your something you'll really wear.
Sara: No kids and husband doesn't do gifts (neither do I these days), but when I do my September shopping I will look around. I'm sure I'll find something. Thanks for the tips.
I find that as I develop stains on my clothing, they become my nightwear. I have several shirts that are no longer wearable out of the house, but are fine for inside wear. Maybe something like this would work for you? Also, perhaps instead of yoga pants you could do cutoff sweats, around knee length.
I think this responsum is quite interesting. when I went to see Tehora through JOFA, one thing that was said at the introduction was about the research done in the Boston/Waltham community into T"H. Each woman who used the mikvah was asked if she observed the harchakot. Most answered yes. Then they were asked about specific things: If you have a piece of mail and it is your husbands do you put it down instead of handing; Do you eat together; play games; wear makeup; wear different clothing inside or outside of your house. Everyone had different answers, but they all felt they were observing the harchakot. I think this shows how the harchakot are a set of instructions, but they also are a reflection of your relationship and the meaning behind certain actions.
"If you have a piece of mail and it is your husbands do you put it down instead of handing; Do you eat together; play games; wear makeup; wear different clothing inside or outside of your house. Everyone had different answers, but they all felt they were observing the harchakot. I think this shows how the harchakot are a set of instructions, but they also are a reflection of your relationship and the meaning behind certain actions."
With the exception of the first, none of these are harchokot! That's why there is so much variation in the response (and the first is brought in Shulchan Aruch, but is of later origin than other harchakot).
And the sages specifically say wearing make-up is okay, "so she shouldn't become repulsive to her husband." (Well, not for me... my husband hates it!)
But that's a good point, nona. I missed that the first time.
I guess it's all in the details....
Such as:
Eating together - but with a shiniu
Makeup - not too enticing
etc.
After all, we're not required to wear a bag over our head, or report to a Niddah Hut!
Well, for brevity I didn't spell out every question, but it was phrased more like "how do you hand objects, how do you eat together," etc. Some people won't play games because it is too lighthearted and may lead to something else.
There was a practice, and some people still do this, of wearing a broach or a scarf while you are niddah that reminds your husband of your status. And there are many people who wear more makeup or nicer clothes when they are not niddah. My point is: every community is different, every relationship is different and the WAY people keep the harchakot are different. Back to the original post, it seems that the Conservative movement is acknowledging this.
Could you please post a link to the responsum? Thanks.