Mayim Rabim

I've been there - not the IVF, but the cycles screwed up by infertility meds and being told when you can and can't have relations.

And if it makes you feel any better, with my first child, after birth I made hefsek tahara and then started bleeding again on the sixth or seven clean day - three times it happened. I didn't go to the mikvah until my baby was 12 weeks old. That's a very long time to be in niddah. Luckily, with my second child I was able to go at 10 weeks old. (ha!)

The good part about it was that my husband was very understanding both times and was very clear that when Hashem wants us to be together it will be the right time. And the Rov who was very kind and after the second time of bleeding during the seventh day very calmly said, "Mrs. Veibel, please, PLEASE, only make bedikahs on the first and last days. I vant that you should go to the mikvah very soon." I think he did it just so he wouldn't have to listen to me cry to him again, lol.

If that makes you feel good, then hearing I didn't get to the mikvah until FIVE MONTHS after my son was born, should make you feel GREAT!

Ooch, sara, 5 months... your poor husband! (And poor you too, but it's harder on husbands b/c they aren't recovering from childbirth at the same time, just being made to wait, and wait, and wait...) My "record" is 11 weeks, a lot closer to vasserveibel's experience, and that was far too long!

Anyway, eden, hang in there. One day (or one week) really isn't the end of the world, however much it may seem that way right now. May G-d grant you many long years with your husband, and plenty of tahor days among them. (And not only should IVF be the "magic bullet" for you, but you should "nurse clean!") That's my brocho for you.

On the subject of life's challenges, here's a really good story that might lend you some perspective: This is a Test

So frustrating! I am thinking that Taharat ha-Mishpacha is so difficult since we have a double loss of control-- we can't control our bodies and we can't control our (practical) response to what our bodies do. I guess this month you should focus on quality, not quantity ;)

Vasser, fortunately (unfortunately?) I have already received that heter. It makes it a great deal easier to get to mikvah once I'm past the hefsek stage, but doesn't help me make a hefesk itself...

You are actually the second person I've heard of who took 12 weeks to get to mikvah after giving birth - it's not supposed to happen, but it does. But I've never heard of 5 months!! My Gd. I'm sorry you both went through that.

Avigayil, thank you for understanding! I will try to keep the quality-not-quantity idea in mind. :)

Desde, I appreciate your brachot very much! I do hope it's clear, though, that I'm not complaining because of one day.

First of all, it's more like three days, since in theory one should be able to make a hefsek on Day 5. Plus the loss of at least four days last month, and the prospect of 4-6 weeks ahead when I don't know if we'll be allowed to have sex at all. All of these days are, of course, not the end of the world, but certainly very precious to me. I can only assume they would be to any woman who's very attracted to and in love with her husband.

But it's not just a slightly longer period, or a little less intimacy with my husband right now. It's the fact that for me a long period most likely means missing ovulation. It's the fact that I've been struggling with this for years, pushing myself to try a hefsek as early as possible, asking every shaylah no matter how ridiculous, stressing every month until the last minute - will we make it? won't we make it? - and coming up time after time with nothing but frustration.

Then there's the fact that halachic infertility puts extra stress on us as a couple, and simultaneously deprives us of one of the most important tools for dealing with that stress.

I think the perspective that Hashem doesn't give us a test we can't pass can be a helpful one. What I'm saying is, I'm sick and tired of passing this particular test.

Then there's the fact that halachic infertility puts extra stress on us as a couple, and simultaneously deprives us of one of the most important tools for dealing with that stress.

Yes, I definitely hear that and I have been there before. There are ways to make your flow time shorter: exercise, tampons, douching. I think also we pressure ourselves to make a hefsek on day 5. Just because it is permitted to make a hefsek on day 5 doesn't make it "normal" to do so. I'll bet a lot of people who don't practice T"H would say their flow extends past day 5.

As for IVF, yes, you will be expected to abstain after the procedure, probably until after your blood test and possibly even until you see a heartbeat (IY"H by you!) But I think it is different when that happens (I have been there) because you are prepared for it. Good luck!

Yes, my doctor said that if I went any longer than five months, he'd do a d & c.

It was awful, spotting that long. I ruined lots of white undies and had to eventually get new white sheets, I had washed them so much!

More than that, it planted deep seated depression in my husband. We were both so happy and carefree before that - and then wham, we had a terribly, terribly needy, crying baby on our hands, and extended Niddah. I don't think he ever really recovered from it & FYI - we only had one more child after that.

Eden, I see that. I guess I truly don't understand, never having had the experience of either a day 5 hefsek or trouble conceiving. For me it's easy to say, "but if you're moving onto IVF anyway, why does one more month of not having the chance to conceive naturally (with the odds apparently stacked against you) matter anyway?" But of course it does matter.

And yes, you are losing that precious time with your husband this month, and you see more of that loss coming up... but during the "abstention" for IVF, they don't insist that you remain niddah, do they? Just that you can't have sex. (Or is the procedure done while still niddah and they forbid bedikahs?)

Assuming you do get to go to mikvah during IVF, I expect it will be a very different experience for you than extended niddah. Just as extended tahor time changes your perspective on your time together as well.

Oh, and Sara, I'd like to smack that doctor for you. (If it goes longer than 5 months...) was your Rav aware of what was going on? Did your dr. know what spotting for months on end does to a frum relationship? I know, it matters little now, but really, the things Dr.s let slide b/c they don't understand the long term effects on a frum couple! Letting it go that long was neither fair nor nice.

Eden, make that three. I also took 12 weeks before going to mikvah after the birth of my son. My husband had a harder time with it, as was mentioned, because he wasn't also trying to recover from the physical hardship of labor and delivery, but he was very supportive and we made it through.
Now, about 5 months. I know someone who had to wait a full 6 months with her child. She was nursing on/off and would slowly stop bleeding/start again,etc. Eventually at about 6 months (I don;t know if it was doctor/rav or who suggest it) she stopped nursing altogether and finally was able to get clean. Now, a husband who can go through that certainly deserves a merit badge or something. A wife also deserves the badge but for her its different because of everything else with baby thats happening.

I didn't really think it was a question since I was still bleeding red blood! I also didn't think to ask the Rov what to do....since my doctor is a frum doctor and he just said to give it time.

Maybe things are different now. I think 20 years ago a lot of ladies bled on and on.

There are ways to make your flow time shorter: exercise, tampons, douching.

Exercise? I haven't actually heard that one. Interesting. I do already use tampons, and as far as I understand, douching would most likely not work for me - it's best for when you're only seeing brown, because that means you stopped bleeding a little while ago but the old blood has not been cleaned out yet. I am unfortunately seeing bright red blood on Day 6.

I think also we pressure ourselves to make a hefsek on day 5. Just because it is permitted to make a hefsek on day 5 doesn't make it "normal" to do so.

I completely agree, Visiting. I wouldn't be fighting the length of my period at all, if I weren't trying everything I can possibly think of to get pregnant. When I was first married, I usually didn't even try to make a hefsek until Day 7! But when you know the odds are stacked against you, it's so hard to say to yourself, it's okay, you don't have to try this month. Because what if this is THE month, and I miss it?

And yes, even at the last moment, I am still hoping to escape IVF. ;) It's expensive, invasive, and far from guaranteed to work on the first try.

I think you have all made a good point, though; abstaining for an extended period of time while tehorah might be easier (for me, if not for my husband) than being full-fledged niddah. Or at least, different. Especially if there's a baby in the picture, whom I can feel like I'm making this sacrifice for...

fyi -

I can only cringe about your friend's situation - the 6 months itself, plus the advice to just stop nursing. It does sound like (since you don't have all the details) she may have also decided on her own to stop nursing completely, but if that was advice from a doctor, it bugs me.

And eden - not that it changes anything for you, but my period has always gone to day 6 or 7. So I have been reading various posts here about Day 5! Day 5! Day 5! and grumbling about how lucky you all must be that it's 12 days, and not 14. (Not that I envy you the IVF, just that I guess the grass IS always greener . . . sending good vibes)

I wouldn't be fighting the length of my period at all, if I weren't trying everything I can possibly think of to get pregnant. When I was first married, I usually didn't even try to make a hefsek until Day 7! But when you know the odds are stacked against you, it's so hard to say to yourself, it's okay, you don't have to try this month. Because what if this is THE month, and I miss it?

Yes, totally understand. I also have "halachic infertility" although our actual "problem" turned out to be male factor. 6 IUIs and 3 IVFs later (and selling our nice little suburban house to pay for it all) I have a little boy.

I found that charting and counting days and bedikot only made the anxiety worse. Not that there is an alternative, but this is certainly a situation where I felt out of sync with people who feel that T"H makes them more in control of their bodies. I felt like by checking and charting, I was making myself hysterical. Again, I don't have any advice to offer except to tell you I have been there.

You might want to look into red raspberry leaf tea to help with staining and lengthy bleeding. I didn't use it, and I wouldn't use it without speaking with a doctor, but people say it cuts down on bleeding length.

This doesn't have to do directly with T"H or with the original post. I apoogize if that is inappropriate.

The idea that Hashem doesn't give us tests/hardships that we can't pass/overcome really upsets me. Maybe I do not have the faith that others have. But how am I to interpret this perspective when I am in so much pain and do not have the resources to cope with it? How does one reconcile this perspective with the fact that there are people who work very hard to overcome hardships and still get crushed?

Thank you for any thoughs you might share.

All Alone, maybe you have to seek out help.

Let us know what it is and maybe we can help,or know of people who can help you.

Don't be all alone!

Thanks for responding Sara. I do seek out help, constantly, but no one cares to help me. I don't want to be all alone, but I unfortunately am. If this is some test, I do not have the resources to pass it.

All Alone, do you want to contact me privately?

Um, I don't know.

Either you want help or not. I don't know you and may have different resources than those you've previously used.

Sara, I am uncertain for a number of reasons, one of which is that I was confused by your phrasing of the question. If you are inviting me to contact you privately -- and how I'd remain anonymous while doing so I do not know -- than that is lovely of you. Right now I am finding the tone insensitive, not inviting. I apologize for my part in getting us to this upsetting point. I would be grateful for some help. I am also still interested in thoughts regarding my original question.

I would love to help you, if I could....I certainly do not mean to be insensitive!

Maybe our Webmistress has an idea of how you can stay anonymous?

all alone - I did not respond to your initial comment because I don't have an answer and I figured there would be no lack of people writing in. but maybe no one else has an answer for you either, or maybe it's just a busy time of the year. anyway, I just wanted to let you know that someone else read what you wrote and cares.

I don't know if G-d only gives us problems we can overcome. However, I think that believing that this is true will make you more likely to overcome them. I certainly don't always know how to solve my challenges. but I figure that everyone has problems in life, and these just happen to be mine.

All Alone,

I think any theological explanation for suffering is of limited usefulness. There are people it will not comfort, and cases it will not be appropriate for. If something like "Hashem doesn't give us a test we can't pass" helps a person, that is wonderful. If it doesn't help you, though, please don't feel that you must accept it. There are other ways of looking at suffering, and maybe one of those will speak to you instead. There are also times when it can be of some comfort to have others recognize there is no explanation good enough to justify what you're going through. I think that is one of the messages of Iyov.

I don't know your situation, but I've certainly seen people go through things that seemed too much to ask of any human being. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, yes. But sometimes it damages us beyond repair, too. I think suffering can give people an opportunity to grow in new ways, but can simultaneously make them struggle with things they used to be much better at, as their emotional resources become taxed or depleted.

Although I don't want to be pushy, and I certainly don't want to be insensitive, I think I agree with Sara's original impulse. You sound as though you're in real crisis right now. I wish we could help alleviate your situation first - that might even help with the religious questions. Is there anything you feel comfortable telling us about what you're struggling with, and what you have already tried?

To answer your question, the easiest way to email someone anonymously is to set up an account with something like gmail, hotmail or yahoo; they will let you make up any name you want.

Thank you Sara, AbyBelibi, and Persephone for your caring.

Sara, if you still think it could be helpful, I will try to use an anonymous account to e-mail you. Thank you for wanting to help.

AbyBelibi, I really appreciate your having made the distinctinction between the statement as a fact and as something not a certainty but helpful to believe. Thank you for that.

Persephone, you hit a lot of nails right on the head for me. Thank you so much. You write well and insightfully.

You expanded on what AbyBelibi wrote, it seems. All I saw previously was an aphorism that made no sense to me. At least I now see that these ideas might be helpful to others.

I think I fall into that last category. No theological explanation has ever been helpful to me. It would be great if there were some way of "looking at suffering" that would "speak to [me]." A rabbi recently simply told me that Hashem would help me. That infuriated me. Where has Hashem been as the problems piled on and on? Why didn't the rabbi try to help me? "[T]o have others recognize there is no explanation good enough to justify what [I'm] going through," and for them to recognize the horrible facts for what they are rather than trying to give platitudes is indeed what is, though still not helpful, at least comforting instead of infuriating. What is Iyov?

You also, Persephone, unknowingly used phrasing that specifically describes me. This recognition is what is so validating. I am indeed "damaged beyond repair." I appreciate that someone recognizes that this can be; I am so tired of hearing that everyone is salvageable when it simply is not true, when no one knows how to help me. What does one do when one is unsalvageable? Some struggle is beneficial, I agree, but I've had so much suffering, am in so much pain, and, indeed, my "emotional resources [have] become . . . depleted."

I wish, too, that you "could help alleviate [my] situation." You all are so kind to want to help. But it isn't that I have one sole problem that is pushing me over the edge. I am indeed in crisis, and am basically alone. I have a therapist who is unhelpful, who gives me no hope. I do not have many friends, and none are able to be helpful as I suffer in this state. Being alone bites me twice, first by being a large part of the cause of problems, and again by meaning there is not comfort for me. I am being crushed by so many situations, and have been working especially hard in the last year and a half, and I'm just so tired, I'm not getting anywhere, the past cannot be changed, and I am grieving and angry and bereft and so very sad, and I can't do it any more. I'm not suicidal, so I'm just stuck. I am broken, so broken. As infantile as it sounds, I just want someone to take care of me.

You all are really great to take notice of the pain behind the theological question I posted, and to offer to try to help along with sharing your thoughts regarding the theological issues. I feel badly about taking up space on a site about T"H about all this (and am worried someone who knows me in real life will recognize this), but I appreciate your invitation to do so.

Sometimes things can't be solved. Sometimes there are no answers.

In the end, things are run by HaShem, and we don't know how He figures things out. We can only daven for revealed good.

I don't work magic. I just care!

all alone -

For starters, Iyov is the Hebrew for Job, as in the Book of Job, from the Scriptures.

As far as feeling crushed by your circumstances, especially vis a vis your unhelpful therapist, PLEASE find the strength to "fire" him/her and get a better therapist; in any case, if this one isn't helping, it can't be beneficial to continue going.

And may I just add, that "damaged beyond repair" is NOT the same as "unsalvageable". "Damaged beyond repair" I would say speaks to an aspect of self, maybe a perspective, or innocence lost, or a fear of letting someone else close (etc etc).

Unsalvageable seems to say totally useless and valueless. No living human being is ever useless and valueless. Religion and the US govt may argue over that in the context of long term comas requiring life support machines, but that is obviously not your case.

Sometimes just holding on to the belief that there is a God, and there is a Plan, to which we, as mere mortal human beings are not privy, or even capable of understanding, can be comforting. (or maybe not, depends on the individual. . . but I'd much rather believe that I'm "dumb" than that there is no purpose to the universe)

Okay, I created an (I hope) anonymous account and wrote to Sara privately.

One thing I wrote was in response to what Sara posted, that I fear I'm something that can't be solved.

Michal, thank you to you as well for your response.

How did I go all these years without knowing the Hebrew from Job? I feel like Job in some ways. Though, didn't Job have visitors? I asked a rabbi about Job once, but he said he didn't understand most of the Ketuvim.

I find your distinction between "damaged beyond repair" and "unsalvageable" interesting. I myself feel both, however, and that the definitions as they seem to me, which differ from your definitions, go together.

I'm not comforted by the idea of God.

Oh, and Michal, about the therapist, I simply don't know what to do. Finding a therapist has been quite difficult . . .

I feel badly about taking up space on a site about T"H about all this

Of course it's up to Shanna, but as the person who started this thread, you're welcome to this corner of space if it will help you...

I sympathize about finding a new therapist. I think you have to be lucky as well as persistent to find one who's a good fit. And sometimes a therapist who worked well with you in the past might no longer be helping you, because you've gone as far as you can go with them. But it doesn't mean there's no help for you out there.

I hesitate to say this without knowing anything about your situation, but there can also be times when it seems like a therapist is saying "I can't help you", and really what they're saying is "I can't help you in the way that you want." I'll give you a specific example: if someone is obsessive compulsive, as I have a tendency to be, a therapist might refuse to talk about the client's fears too much -- because that would only encourage the obsession. Do you see what I mean? Or with an addict, a therapist might have to say "I can't fix this for you, you are the one who's going to have to do the work, to make the change, and I don't see that you're willing to do that yet." Which sounds like abandonment, but is actually a challenge to action. And with someone who's depressed, a therapist might be offering all kinds of help, and yet none of them sound like viable options to the client simply because she's too depressed to believe that anything could ever change.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that if your therapist really thought s/he couldn't help you, s/he would refer you to someone else. It's simply unethical to continue to see you (and charge you) otherwise. If that hasn't happened, I think your therapist probably believes s/he can still help you, and is trying to do so. And you might want to consider whether that message is just disguised in some way that you can't hear it yet.

I'm so sorry that you're having such a hard time. I hope it helps a little to know that people out here care about what happens to you.

All alone - If you are not comforted by the idea of God, you should probably seek a therapist that does not implicitly or explicitly promote God as an answer to one's problems. Religion works for some people. It doesn't work for everybody.