Mayim Rabim

Desde, I think your question is a valid one. I don't even think this blogger understands that mikvah for married women is an ongoing thing; he specifically notes that now that they are married it is "too late". It is really scary that there are others like him out there who have almost no understanding of taharat ha-mishpacha, but think they do. I have heard of teenage girls swimming in a lake and thinking that this somehow made them "kosher" for sex.

I think your post begs the question: At what age should girls be taught the halachos of Taharat ha-Mishpacha? Is before the wedding sufficient or should it be done earlier, like in high school?

I am shocked at how little some kallot (brides) know. I remember a college classmate who's sister got married and she had no idea what was doing, but that "of course they have two beds, that's what everyone has" (I think I didn't bother to explain to her how *my* world had been). [I was asking what mikvaot were like b/c I was curious.]

I think that there should be some basics. I had to learn this for my conversion classes. Of course not in great detail, but an overview.

But maybe I just have no idea what really is and isn't known because I don't come from that world. But it did help me to come more to terms with it.

I was discussing frustrations the other day with an unmarried friend and she was very perplexed at the process. And I wonder, how much should I explain?

I *love* teaching this, but should a girl really be stressing about bedikot and things? I do think it would be very helpful for them to know the importance of keeping a calendar. It might help them learn other things earlier. (I was very athletic in high school and my period would only come on the off-season when I trained less; having a calendar may have helped my gyn while in college asking "is this normal?" (answer: no and not healthy in the long run))

My kallah teacher told how she read up on it on the sly in kitzur shulchan aruch ("code of jewish law" a classic summary of the shulchan aruch [a lay persons guide to halachah]). I forget what happened after she read it, but I know she was still curious and had to wait until she was a kallah. I think. I recall it took her until she was a mother herself for her to understand why her mother flipped out when someone spilled red fingerpaint on the bedspread once.

I have another friend who sent her kids from the room and went to the TOP of her bookcase to pull down a basic guide on T"H for me. Ok, some of them are less than 10, but it just seemed a bit over the top for me.

Then again, my mom had a VERY hard time talking to me about my body and left it to the school. At least I had a very well detailed biology book. ;)

And boys? I have no idea. I think my husband learned biology from PBS and his parents. I taught him about T"H. (before our classes started, explaining to him why we needed them. of course once i "taught" him he asked if he really needed to go. OY!)

We have our Hilchos Niddah books right on the shelf next to Hilchos Brochos and Hilchos Kashrus... my son found me reading one and asked me what "Niddah" was. He's kind of young for that sort of discussion, so I told him it was special laws for married people and he would learn all about it when he was old enough to get married. He had one question... "so it only applies to married people?" and that satisfied his curiousity for the moment. But the books are here, and he can reach, so if he gets curious later on, he'll be able to read them. I'm not sure how I feel about that... but I think he won't understand what he reads until he's much older anyway, and it will all work itself out. I'd answer real biology type questions from a teenager, but not from a pre-pre-adolescent.

Oh, and I'm still forming in my mind what to tell my daughters... a basic biology lesson of some sort near puberty, definitely, and stressing the need to keep a calendar (thanks, talia!), but that'll be closer to 11-13, way too young to discuss T"H, in my opinion. We'll see if their school addresses anything, but I'm thinking an overview of T"H closer to marriageable age might be in order. Not the nitty gritty how-to, but some idea of how it all works?

I could be wrong, but I think something is taught in seminary, at least at overview, so the girls aren't shell-shocked when it comes to getting engaged.

In Stern College it's a required course - or at least it was - so the girl is all set and only needs to review later when she truly needs it.

I had a friend who got engaged and once her fiancee found out what the dinim were all about, he decided not to be religious any more.

It's really not fair just to spring it on people!

Oh, and another thing - I hate it when the mikvahs are located far away - sure you want privacy, but you also want Safety!

I was raised FFB and did not know much about mikvah. All I knew is that it had something to do with a women having her period and immersing in the water. I knew nothing about 7 days, etc. etc. Once I was older (post hi school) I started to know a few of the details of the situation and halachos but still vague. I learned it all in kallah classes and wasn't the least bit shocked as none of us had known anything and that is what they teachers are prepared for, shell-shocked students...
The only thing we were told some point in hi school, seminary, etc. I don't remember who or when we were told but was to mark a calendar with when we had our period. No one ever said to mark day vs. night or only the first day, so I would alwasy mark the whole time I had it. There were seasons/sessions where I was lazy and forgot to mark it, but by the tiem I was ready to get married it was pretty much all setup and I had some inkling of what to do.

De-lurking to comment on Stern college's T’H classes.

I’m a recent Stern graduate and it’s not a required class, however, maybe it was some time in the past. Currently there are two different teachers who teach that course and it is only open to juniors and seniors. In the course I took, Mrs. Nechama Price, the teacher, made clear that this was not a “kallah class” - there were some important topics we would not have time to cover. It was a very difficult but very informative (and rewarding!) class that taught in depth the halachic sources and development of various T’H laws. Unlike a kallah class there was less emphasis on the “what to do halacha”, but rather why or where did this halacha/minhag come from.

Having taken both a Kallah class (a series of crash lessons in T’H) and this intensive Stern course, I think both are important. However, an intensive T’H class, like that one, may be too much overwhelming information for those who have not yet learned the halachas on a basic level.

It sure can be overwhelming!

I remember some girls (that had just become frum, who had to learn everything from alef beis on up) that only learned how to do bedikahs, they left the calendar up to their husbands to be. Or i guess they could ask the rov, or get software.

Not everyone is up for it!

that's why a hebrew calendar (with the english/civil dates) makes it soo much easier. there are several calendar formats floating around. i like the one i'll call the "chabad" one (i think it's called times) as opposed to the one which goes with Mrs Abramov's book. That's just my preference -- it made the Hebrew and day-of-week much easier for me to quickly see. I recall some great software for palm pilots (try www.pilotyid.com i think).

The Abramov one just confused me as to which day was which.

Thank you for posting on this topic. You're right - I thought the whole mikveh experience for women was akin to toiveling a dish.

While I was unsuccessful in trying to get my best friend's callah to go to the mikveh, maybe by venting my frustration and you reading it, perhaps your article (sincerely more educated and knowledgeable on the topic) may influence at least one more person to start observing the laws of family purity. From what I have read, T"H is one of the most important things a husband and wife can do; if not done, the lack of T"H can spiritually be one of the most destructive forces within a family.

Again, keep in mind that I am an unmarried man, and that I don't exactly know the details about what is required and what is not required. But I am very happy (and relieved) that this is being spoken about, [especially by someone who knows what he is talking about]. I hope your article reaches many of the right people who are affected by your article and take action on it to make their relationships a holy and pure one.

Warm regards,
Zoe

It's such a fine line, between privacy and shame, I often think. I keep TH (thanks mayimrabim.com, for the convenient acronym) and I don't make it a secret, i feel like it's something people who know me (including my kids) need to know. I don't think they need to know when I go, just that I do, that I respect the mitzvah and have gotten educated about it.

My husband still maintains that his mom never went, and started out our marriage saying that it was one of the things that only "fanatics" did.

Ruth, I find your comment about your husband interesting, because i recently heard a story (no idea how reliable it is as it had no source, but it makes a point)that post WWII, many young, orthodox girls who survived, remained torah-observant, and went on to marry and raise families of their own, had difficulty accepting the mitzvah of TH, becuse they firmly believed that their parents, who were also orthodox had not kept TH, because these girls had no idea that their parents had been keeping it a secret. my children are still young, but while i had always intended to keep it a secret, this story has made me rethink my stance (though no conclusion reached yet).
Desde - I have also been wondering what to tell my daughters in the future, and was thinking maybe to emphasize the why we do things, rather than the how or what the details are - maybe that would make the details easier to accept when it becomes more applicable(no conclusion on this yet either - i'm glad i still have some years to wait before it becomes relevant to me and my family!)

I thought that TH is more of an obligation on a man in that he's chayav karais (his soul is separated from G-dliness) if he sleeps with a niddah, whereas I haven't heard of the consequences for women (maybe it's the same?) So it's a little weird that the woman does the bulk of the work in keeping TH. Or maybe it's not weird - marriage is a great source of potential mitzvot and chesed in general.

I remember my orthodox (all female) 8th grade class going a little boy crazy. That might have been a good time for someone, anyone, to mention that the Torah is a guidebook for every aspect of life, even our interactions with the opposite gender (we can wait at least until high school to say "opposite sex") ;), etc. Maybe explain a little bit more about shomer negiah (refraining from touching people of the opposite sex who are outside of the immediate family), possibly mention that it continues in some form even in marriage.

Also, there's a computer program called Vestos.

...just some thoughts.